Going for the overcall

[Vazh]

In this hand I decided to go for the overcall rather than raise on all streets. Thoughts? I don't have specific reads, but the table was very tight, ~30% seeing flops, and there was a lot of folding to raises.


Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, Hero calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 10.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10.75 BB, between Hero, Button and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by Hero (10.75 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 9d 7d (two pair, nines and sevens).
Hero shows Qd Kc (straight, king high).
Button shows Jh Ac (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.75 BB. </font>

[sublime]

Raise the turn.

Bet/raise the river.

[B Dids]

I'm not familiar with the "overcall" can somebody describe this play to me? Is this just not betting because you think that you'll win more money by letting somebody bet for you?

[chief444]

"overcall" is calling after one or more others have already called a bet. In this hand the button actually made the overcall and the hero made the first call.

side note: As sublime pointed out, I would definitely raise the turn in this hand.

edit: In this hand by going for the overcall he meant just calling the river and hoping the button would overcall, as opposed to raising. Either way probably wins one more BB. But I would have also raised the river and hope for more than just the overcall.

[B Dids]

Thanks.

Seems to me that with the calling station nature of the micro limits, this play just isn't +EV at this level.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me that with the calling station nature of the micro limits, this play just isn't +EV at this level.

[/ QUOTE ]

There have been times that I've felt comfortably that I had the best hand but just called the river thinking I will win a bigger pot with overcalls than with a raise. But I can probably count those times on one hand and I don't think ever with just a 3-handed pot. I'm not sure that it would be a more common play at higher limits than at micro level though. Better players consider how many callers there are more than micro players. In other words, a better player may fold a mediocre hand based on one or more calls in between him and the bet, where he may call if there were no other callers.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Seems to me that with the calling station nature of the micro limits, this play just isn't +EV at this level

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is a case where "knowing" your opposition is key. Example:

MP1 is a TAG
CO is you
Button is a fish

TAG raises and while you are not sure you have HIM beat, you are pretty sure you have Mr Fish beat. You are hoping for an overcall because it will put more "dead" money in the pot and make up for the times whem you dont have the best hand.

Another subject talked about in the loose games section of HEFAP.

[Vazh]

I was very close to raising the turn.

On the river dead money is the key. With the 4 straight on the board I was a little concerned that I'd have to split the pot, therefore I wanted the extra caller to come along. It's easy to say "Bet/raise" when you know their cards. In this case it's likely that both players would have called the turn raise and river bet, and I may have even been check-raised by BB when he picked up his 2-pair.

I think it was a valid play given my information in this case. It's not my default play though.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]

I was very close to raising the turn.


[/ QUOTE ]

You should have

Also raise the flop, you dont want an overcall here.

In *this* situation just calling the river was the correct move. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Vazh]

By raising the flop I risk driving out the player behind me when I have an OESD. Why would I want to do that?

If I was going to raise, the turn was the time.

[sublime]

I am sorry, I must have been dozing off here for a minute. Disregard my 2nd post, raise the turn and bet/raise the river.

[MortalNuts]

in general, I like going for river overcalls a lot better when

a) there is more than one person to act behind me, and/or

b) I'm not quite sure I have the original bettor beat, and would have to call a 3-bet.

That is, suppose on the river there are 4 of us left. First person to act bets into me when I hold a good, but not great made hand, and I believe the players behind me hold mediocre hands that they will pay off for one bet, but not two. In this kind of situation, just calling can be clearly better than raising: you will win as much or more when you're ahead, and lose less when you're behind. Obviously it's complicated by the fact that sometimes people will call two bets with crappy hands, or won't 3-bet you with really good hands, but you get the idea.

On this river, you are almost certain to have the best hand, and you only have one player behind you -- he might call one bet, or he might fold, or he might have called two bets if you raised. Whatever. You don't know, you don't really care : there's very little chance of raising being a losing proposition here, and there's a decent chance of it making you more money. So raise.

For what it's worth, I would often have raised the flop (your OESD is NOT the only way to win this hand) and the turn, but different considerations are involved there.

just my 2c.

cheers,

mn

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
in general, I like going for river overcalls a lot better when

a) there is more than one person to act behind me, and/or

b) I'm not quite sure I have the original bettor beat, and would have to call a 3-bet.


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. I think b) is the key here. When I mentioned that I would very rarely make this play, I meant when I was confident I had the best hand. I think it was incorrect in this situation as well.

I also agree with your comment about the flop raise. I don't think calling is bad but I would often raise the flop.