How disgusted are you by my call? (15/30)

[Nate tha' Great]

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Nate Tha Great is SB with 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Nate Tha Great calls, BB calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (10 SB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
Nate Tha Great checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, Nate Tha Great calls

__

I think preflop is an easy call, but I'm sure some folks will beg to differ. Game is typically loose and a hair on the passive side.

I intended to check-raise on the flop if the bet came from late position, but it didn't.

[Nightwish]

Preflop: Whether or not you call depends on your read on the other players. How likely is the BB to 3-bet behind you? If you're routinely calling from this position with this hand, you're bleeding too much from the SB. Though this particular call may not necessarily be wrong.

Flop: What do you think the BB and MP3 have? The BB either has a T, a flush draw, or a 6 with a kicker better than yours. MP3 likely has either a pocket pair (and you better pray it's not something he flopped a set with) or AT. The pot is offering you 6.5:1 with a possibility of a reraise behind you. You have at best 5 outs (and the runner-runner flush and inside straight draws). Fold and move on.

[Senor Choppy]

He'd be insane to fold preflop given the blind structure.

[bernie]

Preflop, if the sb is 2/3, id call. 1/2 bet, id fold.

Id fold the flop.

But a case might be made for calling if you dont think there will be a raise behind you. With the possible flush redraw if you hit trips or 2 pair, 4 clean outs, id want more pot odds for this call. Even adding an out for the b-door flush. You will likely be facing a turn bet, so account for that in how far you will chase this if you do.

b

[gonores]

Preflop: Especially with this weird experiment you have going on with calling from the blinds with premium hands, this is a fine call.

Flop: With no specific reads on the bettor or raiser, I think you have a fold. There are a lot of situations where you could make a case for calling...especially if you think you can get some bluff equity by betting a third diamond, but I wouldn't be wading in too far with this hand unless I really knew what I was doing.

[James282]

Hey Nate - I like your flop play. You certainly are in an excellent position to draw to 2 pair or trips here. BB has a Ten. The rest of them have crappy tens, middling pairs, or overcards. I too would have check-raised a late position bet. Well played.
-James

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
Re: How disgusted are you by my call?

[/ QUOTE ]

No plays ever disgust me, but you'd definitely get a TFR note for that one.

~D

[Steve Giufre]

Hey Nate,

Pretty disgusted, but I can live with it. If MP doesnt 3 bet the flop, and start cramming with the cutoff, I dont think you will be taking too much of the worst of it. I'm far too tired for addition right now, but it looks like you will be getting about 8-1 on your call if it isnt reraised. At first glance it looks like you have five outs, and lets say two more if you count your backdoor posibilities, but thats assuming all your outs are clean, and that you don't get counterfited on the river if you make your hand on the turn. I think someone will have you drawing a lot slimer than you think enough of the time here that folding is probably a little better than calling. I like your plan of checkraising the flop, but I think you need to let go of this one when it's 2 bets to you.

[SinCityGuy]

Nate,

I think this is an easy preflop call with the 2/3 small blind structure.

On the flop, when it's two bets to you, turbomuck and on to the next hand.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Nate - I like your flop play. You certainly are in an excellent position to draw to 2 pair or trips here. BB has a Ten. The rest of them have crappy tens, middling pairs, or overcards. I too would have check-raised a late position bet. Well played.
-James

[/ QUOTE ]

the lower my pair, the harder i play. and i even check raise with Ace high. good play. ... are you nuts? betting is better than cold calling... folding is better too... how hard is it to release a bad hand? am i the only weak player left??

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
He'd be insane to fold preflop given the blind structure.

[/ QUOTE ]

only 4.5:1 or so immediate odds in calling, how is that insane to fold before flop? i call a lot in here too, but it doesn't make me sad to fold it either.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
the lower my pair, the harder i play. and i even check raise with Ace high. good play. ...

[/ QUOTE ]

You folks who call with a strong hand and raise with a vulnerable one aren't as tricky as you think!

[andyfox]

I'm with you. It's still seven-high.

I'm waiting for Coilean to let us know if the backdoors are enough to call 2 bets on the flop. I doubt it.

[haakee]

Did you click the wrong button on the flop? I can't imagine any other reason for the call.

Preflop call for $5 more is a no-brainer.

[Nate tha' Great]

I think there's a divergence in this thread between people who are thinking about this play mathematically, and those who are thinking about it aesthetically.

Aesthetically, the flop call is disgusting.

Mathematically, it may be correct.

[haakee]

Oops, I missed the preflop raise. It's closer than I thought, but I'd still lean towards folding especially out of position, and given the possibility of a flop 3-bet.

[haakee]

Oops, a raise preflop? I'd fold in the SB but defend if I were the BB. So it's close.

[Nightwish]

[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a divergence in this thread between people who are thinking about this play mathematically, and those who are thinking about it aesthetically.

Aesthetically, the flop call is disgusting.

Mathematically, it may be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
For a convergence of the two, read my original response. I think it's wrong both aesthetically and mathematically.

[Turning Stone Pro]

if you really play that bad. can't wait to come up against you on PP

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
if you really play that bad. can't wait to come up against you on PP

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't play online since the games are rigged.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think there's a divergence in this thread between people who are thinking about this play mathematically, and those who are thinking about it aesthetically.

Aesthetically, the flop call is disgusting.

Mathematically, it may be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]
For a convergence of the two, read my original response. I think it's wrong both aesthetically and mathematically.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong; I think it's very very close. It's true that a reraise behind me would be no fun; on the other hand, it's also worth considering that my effective odds are a bit higher considering that other folks are going to overcall the LP player's raise.

Maybe we should turn the question on its head: how many *clean* outs would I need to have in order to make a call correct?

[Turning Stone Pro]

its amazing how many guys who call raises cold with 67 with an overcard on board and a small pair call the online games rigged.

what an idiot

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
if you really play that bad. can't wait to come up against you on PP

[/ QUOTE ]

Hopefully Party is still "letting you win" when you come up against guys like Nate.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
its amazing how many guys who call raises cold with 67 with an overcard on board and a small pair call the online games rigged.
..
what an idiot

[/ QUOTE ]

You missed the part where he was mocking you.

[Senor Choppy]

You're right about the actual odds. But assuming the 1st limper calls and the big blind folds, it's $20 to call with a pot of $105, odds of 5.25-1. If you assume the big blind also calls it's a pot of $120, so odds of 6-1. Given the possibility of another raise, it's probably best to assume the big blind is folding and your odds are only 5.25-1. Given all this, 5.25-1 with a medium suited connector is a no-brainer.

Considering how many people I see limp with t9s after 1 caller in late position, these same people should be delirious over the chance to play a hand like this with these odds.

[CrackerZack]

Seriously. I need party to start letting me win again.

Hey TSP, I'll be stopping by turning stone memorial day weekend, if you bring the receipts of your new 8k furniture, maybe they'll let you buyin and we can play.

[haakee]

[ QUOTE ]
Considering how many people I see limp with t9s after 1 caller in late position, these same people should be delirious over the chance to play a hand like this with these odds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd much rather play suited connectors on the button than be the guy who's first to act with them on every street.

[James282]

I didn't see that it was 2 bets to you on the flop, I need to rethink whether or not I still like the flop call /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-James

[James282]

Hey kenny, I misread the action and didn't see it was two bets to him on the flop. Deep breaths now /images/graemlins/smile.gif I still hold that it isn't a clear fold, though, given the size of the pot and the action that he will quite likely get later in the hand. What makes me lean towards that it is probably a fold is that you can't really be comfortable with any of your outs, and some of them might be missing in hands like 87, A6, or the like. I still like the check-raise from a late position bet, though.
-James

[davidross]

Pre-flop is right on mny borderline. If the BB isn't too likely to 3 bet I will call when I think it's going to be 5 way, and fold 4 way. With a better set of connectors, maybe 98 I might call 4 way.

I really don't like the flop call. There is a good chance it might come back to you capped.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]

You missed the part where he was mocking you.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a shame really because that was the best part.

[Senor Choppy]

Would you rather have position with worse odds and a higher risk of a raise afterwards?

In this situation, he had better than 5-1. In the example I mentioned, you'd be getting around 3-1. Is position that important with a medium suited connector for you?

[DcifrThs]

you get 10:1 IF and ONLY IF there is no raise behind and they all call. if the bb reraises and all call you are forced to call again as you end the action but this time you only get 24:3 or 8:1 pot odds retrospectively (effective odds on the flop, the last call gets 24:1 but before you call the other two you should factor in a reraise). either way you have to think you have FOUR really clean outs to two pair. 2 8's and 2 9's give you a pair and a gutshot that now negates your two pair outs given all the calls. 10 other clubs (8 or 9 improve your hand the most) to hit a backdoor draw that will almost certainly be the best hand.

bottom line, you don't have the odds to continue. you should fold to the bet cal call call raise "fold". i'm not going to do the math here but i can tell you at most its a close to marginally profitable call but look how much you might have to put in right now not to mention if there's a raise on the turn after yoou called one bet, you'll have to call b/c you've become attached to the p0t. this all adds up to a possibility of being a big loser on the hand or a small winner in the long run.

fold. next hand.
-Barron