8-16 KK UTG

[thatpfunk]

Brand new table, played for an orbit and a half. Regular players who like to gamble, played for a while, sometimes win, sometimes lose.

KK UTG and I raise. Folded to the big blind who calls.

Flop- 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
He checks, I bet, he calls.

Turn- 2 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
He checks, I bet, he check raises, I call.

River- 9 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
He bets...

Comments and criticisms please...

[amerksmann22]

If you have the K of spades you prolly want to 3-bet the turn and see what he does. He could easily check-raise here with a hand like QJo or many others.

A four bet would be scary but you have a redraw. If he 4-bets you could call and fold the river w/ no help.

If he just calls then you are probable in the lead and can safely bet the river. I dont see BB having two pair here but a set is not out of the questions either.

On the river the way you played it:
I might raise and I might call but I am certainly not folding

[risen]

He's told you clear as day that 1 pair is no good. You can lay this down and save a bet on the river. It's either 2 pair or a flush. If you have to look him up for peace of mind go ahead and pay him off on the river, but I'd feel secure laying it down.

[PassiveCaller]

[ QUOTE ]
He's told you clear as day that 1 pair is no good. You can lay this down and save a bet on the river. It's either 2 pair or a flush. If you have to look him up for peace of mind go ahead and pay him off on the river, but I'd feel secure laying it down.

[/ QUOTE ]

This seems very "weak tight" to me when heads up against the BB.

[thatpfunk]

I would really have to disagree with a fold on the turn...
I could be raising with a variety of hands from UTG as this player does not know me. If I have AK AQ KQ he could be raising with a single pair... A fold here would be a signal to the table to CR me all day. The players at this table might be gamblers, but they still can try to make a play.

[Michael Davis]

Definitely not!

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

There is no way you can fold this hand here. Ever. If you're going to fold to a four-bet, you shouldn't pop it.

-Michael

[risen]

I didn't say fold on the turn, I said fold on the river. And you can spend your chips chasing down bluffs all day if you like, when I think I'm beat and there's no cards left to come, I like to not give people money. Not everyone is bluffing at every pot all the time. Plus as an expert test taker, I could tell the answer to the question by it's wording and tone. No one posts that hand here if they call on the river and take it down with KK, it's a non event.

[Michael Davis]

"No one posts that hand here if they call on the river and take it down with KK, it's a non event."

This might be true, but it's results-oriented. You're telling the OP that he needs to fold because he eventually posted this hand on 2+2.

Why can't your opponent have AJ, perhaps with A of spades, or some other combination of hands that include a high spade, a pair, etc. Christ, I might play 44 like this in the right situation.

Note that this flop hasn't helped the UTG raising hands of AK and AQ, but these are hands that might be bet as a semibluff because they contain a high spade. There are just so many possible hands here for a player who isn't a complete tool. You are going to be folding a ton of winners.

-Michael

[Garland]

I had a post where I had about the same scenario: KK UTG and only BB called. The flop was J5x and he checkraised me on the turn when the 5 paired the board. I called him down to the river when the J also paired and showed me AJ. I really should have laid it down on the river.

It's not clear as day that 1 pair is no good. It really is opponent dependent. I'd say that he has a good redraw if he has the K /images/graemlins/spade.gif and should call him down no matter what if he has that card. If he doesn't have that card, then he'll have to look at that opponent and take the appropriate action based on how he played in the past. He could just have the naked A /images/graemlins/spade.gif after all!

Garland

[DcifrThs]

8.xy bb's in the pot 1 to call. do you have him beat more than 11% of the time (1 in 9).

i'd say yes and call. there are just too many hands out there that he could do this with. risen may have a point that at times a check call check raise is a sign of strength but i see it so often from picked up draws and other funky hands that i'd HAVE to call the river bet. you'll win it more than enough to justify the call given the pot.

call, next hand.
-Barron

[amerksmann22]

I have to disagree...
Heads-up he could have any two cards here. It is easy to think that UTG didnt hit and a steal raise when the flush hits would be a great play. Granted he prolly lost b/c it is posted here but that doesnt mean he should fold this hand 100% of the time.

Also, if you didnt have the K/images/graemlins/spade.gif would you call the turn? I am assuming you would fold based on your response b/c you have no redraw. Personally, I think that is a horrible play. I think there are multiple hands the BB raises with here that KK would beat.

[thatpfunk]

I had red Kings so I had no flush draw.

[lefty rosen]

Anybody that autofolds here I want on my table. It's mostly player dependant the fold. Way too many monkeys on the tables at the average cardroom to put him on two pairs.

[elysium]

hi that
you must call. these opponents haven't been taking shots at you, but just might begin to if you fold. the way you played this tells your opponents that you have at least something. and you must call and if you can, muck face down. you would rather your opponents think you are a bit on the calling station side under the conditions you describe. even if they were the type of crowd that will take shots at you anyway, you are still strong enough to call.

there are certain conditions and opponents that you can consider laying this down to, but these opponents do not qualify.

[thatpfunk]

Thanks for any responses, I was happy with how I played the hand, but it it stuck out in my mind and I was wondering if anyone else would play it differently, hence the post.

On the river he bet and I called. I thought he put me on AK or something of that nature and hoped I missed. I had him on AJ, KJ QJ or JT. He turned over red Queens very confidently. I took it down with my pair.

"Expert test taker"- you can post hands you win, I just enjoy discussion in hopes it improves my game.

[RoodyPooh]

[ QUOTE ]
He's told you clear as day that 1 pair is no good. You can lay this down and save a bet on the river. It's either 2 pair or a flush.

[/ QUOTE ]

You give people way too much credit, or atleast a hell of alot more than me.