stop, go, and gone

[sweetzer]

Party 15-30, I'm UTG with JJ, suits not important.

I raise, a solid UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

4 to flop for 10 small bets.

Flop: TT3, I bet, UTG+2 raises, MP2 folds, CO calls, I call.
3 to turn for 8 large bets.

Turn is a blank. I bet, UTG+2 raises, CO folds, I fold. Would anyone call this turn raise? Or reraise the flop?

[steveyz]

I think UTG+2 has a medium pocket pair, maybe 77, 88 .. most players will not raise the flop with a T. I'd consider check-raising the turn and folding to a 3-bet or just calling it down. I think UTG+2 puts you on overcards and is trying to get you to fold.

[j.k.]

What does a solid player cold call an UTG raiser with? Sounds like he may not be so solid after all. Either way, I do believe you folded the best hand. Call his turn raise, and lead out again on the river since he might check behind his lower pair after you call the turn, but will likely call a bet.

j.k.

[Clarkmeister]

I find it hard to believe that they aren't eating you alive.

[DocHollyday]

[ QUOTE ]
What does a solid player cold call an UTG raiser with?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about TT,AKs,AQs,AJs,JJ?

[Mikey]

Come on Clarky what do you mean by this? This is twice he's met resistance, are you advocating calling this one down.

On the flop he bets out and is raised, the guy behind him cold calls.

On the turn he bets out and the it is raised again by the same person who if he didn't have a 10 would have to be worried that the guy behind him has one. Therfore it is more likely that the raiser does have a 10. Hence this fold being correct.

Maybe there is a better way to play it. ??

[BreakEvenPlayer]

Check-raise the turn, call down until the end if he three bets. The dude's not raising a ten on the flop and knocking out other potential overcalls.

[Duke]

I see the showdown here 100% of the time.

~D

[Al_Capone_Junior]

[ QUOTE ]
The dude's not raising a ten on the flop and knocking out other potential overcalls.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this sentiment. the raiser probably has no ten. The question is, what DOES he have. He cold called a raise preflop, then raises this flop. Smells of a pair to me. I would think that he'd reraise preflop with a bigger pair than JJ, therefore the Jacks in the bettor's hand are probably the best out of those two players.

My guess is that this is why Clarkmeister figures he'd get eaten alive, laying down here, but c'mon Clark, specify! Slacker! (pot calling the kettle black here /images/graemlins/grin.gif).

The cold caller behind on the flop worries me. If he also cold called the turn raise, NOW I'd be worried about the ten. If it wound up heads up tho with the flop raiser, I'd call him down.

al

[Little Fishy]

A lot of players will raise a bet on the flop when a blank hits with overcards. I'd put the raiser on maybe an AKo AQ KQ or maybe even AJ. I from fourth on I would check call the raiser down unless you believe your bet being raised will force out the flop caller and increase your odds of winning. I definitly think you should see this one to the end. If an over card hits on the river be prepared to fold, but if you get lucky and spike a J or even trip T's on board then check raise his butt on the end.

[sweetzer]

Clark,

Interestingly, I think a weakness in my game is that I don't fold often enough for the turn raise or chk ras. Probably 80% of the time I pay the two additional bets. In my other post today I called a turn chk ras and then raised on the river, albeit without profit. I agree here that the key question is what would a solid player call an UTG raise with that also included a ten?. With more thought on this, I should have gone to the showdown, likely 3 betting the turn. The key mistake was not taking the time to think this through and instead, relying on the instincts of the moment, I simply felt that I was beat.

[Senor Choppy]

Given the CO's coldcall on the flop, whether the flop is two-tone or rainbow is somewhat important IMO.

You tried the stop and go to try and find out where you are and give yourself a way out of the hand. The problem is this play is NOT giving you the info you need, but inviting your opponent to give you entirely inaccurate info instead.</p>

Finding out that the CO doesn't have a ten here is all you need to call down. Folding here heads-up is horrible.

[Clarkmeister]

"c'mon Clark, specify!"

The pot is big and I have pocket jacks headsup. I am seeing a showdown.

[Clarkmeister]

The problem is that you are spewing tons of chips on both the flop and turn and then still calling down. Take a less aggressive line sometimes. Its quite alright to quietly get to showdown. But putting yourself in a position to lose 4+ big bets postflop with only a pair is generally a real bad idea. Its easy to get carried away with aggression.....we are taught to be aggressive around here. Guys like me hammer in the need to be aggressive to the newer players. But you get to a point where you are in an online 15-30 and everyone is all souped up and real aggressive. Guess what? You don't need to be as aggresssive anymore.

[Gabe]

Man, I really don't know what you're thinking.

[tpir90036]

heads-up i am seeing this showdown roughly 100% of the time. i would put him on a medium pocket pair at this point and he is moving you off of your "overcards"...but your overcards match.... so get to a showdown.

[Michael Davis]

What overcard would you be folding to on the end, and how will you ever know your opponent didn't have 99?

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

I think you make an excellent point here and hope you make it more often. When playing against good players who will often make thin value bets and semibluff, but will also bet when they have you smashed, you need to turn off the raising arm and call down more often. If there is a time to raise early in the hand, it's when you are weak yourself.

Until you can't get away with this anymore, of course. Then you have to readjust.

-Michael

[DcifrThs]

i have to say there is something wrong here. either UTG+2 isn't solid and you should pay off, or he is solid and misclicked UTG+2.

solid players don't come in with a cold call UTG+2 when another, presumably tight, player open raises UTG. and if he did, it means he misclicked. either way though i think some different approaches need to be considered.

first, i'd 3bet the flop if you plan on folding to a turn raise. why? because the way you played it, it LOOKS to a solid player like you have AKs, AKo, or AQs. PLUS he just cold called behind you, and if he is solid he's not doing that with a ten in his hand, even TT. its just not happening unless he misclicked or somehow KNEW if he cold called with JTs that all those people would come along...but solid players tighten up UTG+2 facing an open raise.

therefore he could have 88 and 99 here putting you on overcards trying to make you pay to hit 'em. i don't think he'd cold call with 3's either if he is as you say he is. so something is missing from this picture. given the doubt, i call and check call the river expecting to see 88, 99, jt, ATs and thats about it...but the reason i pay off here is because of the doubt caused by your description of the player and his actions and the other hands he could have putting you on overcards when you stop and go like that.

for that reason i 3 bet the flop, fold to a cap. or 3bet the flop and if he calls bet the turn and fold to a raise. thats just me though.

-Barron

[DcifrThs]

Doc,

against a tight UTG raiser you cold call behind with tt? in a LOOOSE game i'd consider cold calling here with AKs...but that's about it...MAAAYBE AQS, but the pairs i'd 3bet as it would cut down the field unless i saw the field cold calling 3 for some time and then i might cold call TT or JJ. but even then you'd almost have to knock the extra 3 chips out of my hand to stop me from 3 betting.

yes there are times for it but for the most part, unless the game called for it which was not specified, a solid player will not cold call a UTG raise lightly and IMO having a T in his hand makes the call "lightly" so i don't think he has a ten. 8 out of 10 times in this spot you're looking at 88 or 99 from this guy IMO. and i don't think the classification "solid" fits the bill.

-Barron

[Vehn]

on a side note this is now my favorite trick with any reasonably strong hand and I would say it works ~90% of the time on party at least:

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, BB folds, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero bets, Button calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 6c 6s (full house, sixes full of threes).
Button shows Ac Js (two pair, aces and threes).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.50 BB. </font>

[Little Fishy]

Why does it matter if his opponent has 99? Hero has that beat. I'd consider folding to a K or an A, but wouldn't necesarrily. first i'd look at the pot size and at all the other pots i'd seen the same opponent in.

[Michael Davis]

You said: "If an overcard hits the river be prepared to fold."

If your opponent has 99, this would be a disaster. I would not be folding this hand no matter what came on the river.

-Michael

[Little Fishy]

Mike,
Two pair Jacks over Tens beats Two pair Tens over Nines, Why are you worried about pocket nines. Please explain because I'm really confused.

-Little Fishy