Another play along hand

[TheRake]

I can't give any reads like I usually try to do. This is my very 1st hand of the session. You will have to assume a typical party table.

Party 2/4 10 handed

I post in the CO and get K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP3 limps (short stacked only has $2 left), TheRake??

[cold_cash]

Raises.

[Jaran]

It may be that my raising standards are a bit tight, but I limp here.

-Jaran

[Raiser]

I like the free play with this hand. Might as well have the button and blinds play with this hand.

[sublime]

Limp. I don't see many benifits of raising here.

[Sam T.]

Limp unless you think the blinds will call a raise.

[TheRake]

I see some of you saying limp.
Did you pick up the fact that I posted a blind?
I can either check my option or raise no limping alowed /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I will wait for a couple more comments before I post the next action.

TheRake

[Jaran]

Doh! So I'm an idiot who can't read. Still, I would check my option, not raise.

-Jaran

[cold_cash]

I would raise precisely because I posted.

Plus you might get the button.

[Nemesis]

i'm a raiser

[sfer]

This is right on the border. KTs, easy raise. Ahh, f-- 'em. Raise. They're limping with 66% more money in the pot. Buy the button, let yourself peel off a freebie if you whiff the flop completely.

[B Dids]

I limp here.

[Festus22]

Check.

[TheRake]

Well CC seems you and I are the only ones on board with the raise. I did it figuring at least 1 blind would come along and to buy the button.

[ QUOTE ]
I post in the CO and get K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP3 limps (short stacked only has $2 left), TheRake??

[/ QUOTE ]

TheRake Raises, Button Calls, SB folds, BB UTG MP1 & MP3(all-in) all call

5(1 all-in) to the flop for 12.5sb

Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to TheRake who bets, button raises, BB folds, UTG & MP1 both call 2 cold, TheRake??

Comments on the PF raise, Flop action and plan for the rest of the hand please.

TheRake

[B Dids]

I call and hope for a diamond on the turn.

[sublime]

limp/check, you knew what we meant /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[TheRake]

[Clearing his throat]

Sweeeeep!!

Sorry it took so long, but feels good to get that off my chest....please continue /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/blush.gif /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
[Clearing his throat]

Sweeeeep!!

Sorry it took so long, but feels good to get that off my chest....please continue

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL!!! Thanks for bringing a smile to my face Rake /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Raiser]

Before I get to the flop play, I must say that I don't understand why this is a pre-flop raise situation. I wouldn't have even considered it. But, as I respect CC, sfer, and TheRake I must be in the wrong. Anyone care to expand on the PF raise opinion.

As for the flop...

Hmm, no point in raising here. You probably aren't ahead and no one is going away. But you have the odds to hit your 9 or runner runner diamonds, so:

call.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Before I get to the flop play, I must say that I don't understand why this is a pre-flop raise situation. I wouldn't have even considered it. But, as I respect CC, sfer, and TheRake I must be in the wrong. Anyone care to expand on the PF raise opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

I respect everybodys opinion on here, but this flop gives me even more reason not to raise PF. I mean we flopped top pair and STILL may be behind to a better kicker.

Call.

[sfer]

Bet a turn blank and hope the button raises.

EDIT: Obviously you're calling here.

[B Dids]

That's kinda my thought. I don't like to raise with marginal hands in LP unless it's folded to me. I know that most of the time I'm not getting somebody off of their hand if they limped.

What's the motivation for raising here? Are you thinning the field, are you building the pot, do you think you can take it down right now? Seems like the only reason to raise is to push people out, and the hands that say all have a good chance of pushing K9 around.

I'm not afraid of getting out kicked here, I'm afraid of two pair (which I guess means that KJ outkicks me...).

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
I must say that I don't understand why this is a pre-flop raise situation. I wouldn't have even considered it. But, as I respect CC, sfer, and TheRake I must be in the wrong. Anyone care to expand on the PF raise opinion.

[/ QUOTE ]

Raiser,
I don't think you are in the wrong. Several posters have said the same as you. I think it boils down to a personal preference. I wanted to try and take control of the hand, buy my position, build a pot and an image all for the low price of 1sb /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Nottom was the one who first got me thinking about raising with all kinds of hands when posting in the CO.

TheRake

[Jaran]

I think you're either way behind and drawing thin, or just slightly ahead. Button cc 2 pf and now raises you (not to mention the two other flop cc'ers) Hands I would put button on at this point: 55-only K outs (2) and runner-runner str8/flush draws (say 2-3 total) are clean, KJx-only the runner outs, Q10s-you're slightly ahead, but now your str8/flush outs are dirty, KQx-only the 9 (3) outs are clean, J5 & K5 are possible as this is party, but I doubt it, I would have expected a reraise on the flop from AA,KK (only one way, so doubtful anyway), AK, QQ (don't think would raise here) & JJ. AQ might play this way. Now if you include the two cc'ers, I don't like your chances here. I would call down the raise and check fold the turn if I don't improve. (of course, I could be way off here /images/graemlins/smile.gif )

-Jaran

P.S. still don't like the pf raise

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I post in the CO and get K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP3 limps (short stacked only has $2 left), TheRake??

[/ QUOTE ]

TheRake Raises, Button Calls, SB folds, BB UTG MP1 & MP3(all-in) all call

5(1 all-in) to the flop for 12.5sb

Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to TheRake who bets, button raises, BB folds, UTG & MP1 both call 2 cold, TheRake??

[/ QUOTE ]

TheRake calls /images/graemlins/smirk.gif (I am not liking my pf raise much now either)

4 to the turn for 10.25bb

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif[J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif]

What's the plan?

TheRake

[B Dids]

Assuming he's not bluff he's either got two pair with a better kicker, a better two pair, or a boat. I think I have to fold if he bets, but I feel weak-tight suggesting that.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Turn: 5[JK5]

What's the plan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fold to a bet.

[TheRake]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to a bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is it that simple? the question is do I have any outs and if I do how many do I have. If I check, the button bets and gets 2 callers I am getting 13:1. I would only need about 3-4 outs for a call.

TheRake

[B Dids]

My guess would be you don't have outs. Or at least that I wouldn't feel good enough about my outs to call. In my mind- you've got 2 Kings (and I don't really believe that you have 2- so you've got 1 and are drawing for a chop at best), and 3 nines. Assuming the button isn't crazy- I've got to put him on a set, or KJ. If he's got KJ, your outs aren't good anyway.

[Jaran]

Check-fold.

-Jaran

[sfer]

I like folding as much as the next guy, but everyone is saying to fold a 10 BB pot with top pair, shakey kicker because of a button raise on a two broadway card flop?

There are two options here and I don't think folding is one of them. There are two 5s that would improve your hand to the point where you should go multiple bets on the river. River one of three 9 and you should seriously consider betting the river. River one of two Kings and the same logic applies.

Does everyone still want to fold?

EDIT: There is also a chance, and I agree that it's slight, that you have the best hand and the button was pumping hit QT OESD.

EDIT AGAIN: Or Kxs.

[sfer]

You're not in the wrong. The decision to raise is really, really marginal. But I really like having the button, and no one has shown any strength with a hand that is starting with a pot that's 66% larger than normal, so I'd take the initiative.

[TheRake]

Okay folks...here it is...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I post in the CO and get K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif
UTG limps, MP1 limps, MP3 limps (short stacked only has $2 left), TheRake??

[/ QUOTE ]

TheRake Raises, Button Calls, SB folds, BB UTG MP1 & MP3(all-in) all call

5(1 all-in) to the flop for 12.5sb

Flop: J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

Checked to TheRake who bets, button raises, BB folds, UTG & MP1 both call 2 cold, TheRake??

[/ QUOTE ]

TheRake calls /images/graemlins/smirk.gif (I am not liking my pf raise much now either)

4 to the turn for 10.25bb

Turn: 5/images/graemlins/club.gif[J/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif]

[/ QUOTE ]

Checked to the button who bets, UTG and MP1 both call I think about it and decide I can't fold (cuz the pot is big - Anyone know where this came from?) and call.

4(1 all-in) to the river for 14.25bb

River: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif[5/images/graemlins/spade.gifJ/images/graemlins/diamond.gifK/images/graemlins/club.gif5/images/graemlins/heart.gif]

Checked to me I bet, button calls, UTG & MP1 both fold

All-in guy shows ATo
Button shows KTo
MHIG

Discuss....

TheRake

[B Dids]

My first thought is that I didn't think about the straight draws at all. I'll bet a gutshot with overcards (sometimes) so why wouldn't somebody else... I think SFer made the best case.

This was an interesting insight into things. Playing this live I probably would have called down, but with time to think all I did was created monsters and talk myself into folding.

[JDErickson]

Nice hand to review Rake. I run into this situation a lot and always have trouble with these.

You K is probably not good. Is it worth sticking to hit the 3 outer for 2 pair? Obviously it depends on the size of pot and implied odds if you hit. Another thing to think about is you 2 pair may already be counterfeited.

It a tough hand but I think I check PF and play as you did the rest of the way, but I don't like it.

[sfer]

Great value bet on the river.

[sfer]

Hey JDE, if you're outkicked, you have 5 outs--don't forget the 5s. If he has two pair (KJ), you have two outs.

[cold_cash]

My main reason for advocating the raise is the chance to buy the button. I think if you post in the cut-off and have any hand you believe to be playable, you should be raising the majority of the time.

The blind you posted is gone, and already part of the pot. This makes the situation different from other hands you play in the cut-off. In other words, there are times when limping from the cut-off is undoubtedly the right play, but I don't think after you've posted is one of those times.

[Trix]

Limps.

[Trix]

Call getting 19:1, but realize that you are very likely behind.

[vulturesrow]

I know this is sort of like a little late /images/graemlins/wink.gif but I agree with the way you played the hand. I _like_ the PF raise myself and have no real disagreement with how you played it out.