Just a little weak tight? QQ in my first red chip game ($10-20)

[fsuplayer]

First time playing above $6-12. I made the jump for several reasons, but mainly bc I had played with about half of the players in the game before in other limits and I felt that I what I lacked in experiance in hours, I more than made up for in my knowledge of the game over those players. Also my BR from Party NL was over $8k and I had taken out half, so I figured I would take one dive into the big game and see what happens.

So I jumped in and got my feet wet!
The table had the one very solid player from my $6-12 game, one farmer looking redneck calling/betting station, one drunk stupidly aggressive player, an asian who calls too much, a scary navy seal diver kid who, unsurprisingly, is overaggressive with his hands as well, and two other players i had played with who were pretty decent, one a little tight, and one a little loose though.

An hour into the game I am up about $150 from an AA hand and an AKs that hit top pair which put me up big but a turned straight that got rivered with a boat by my best friend hurt though, esp. since he capped it on the turn after I three bet with my straight /images/graemlins/crazy.gif.

I pick up Q /images/graemlins/spade.gifQ /images/graemlins/club.gif UTG and raise.
Drunk LAG kid who is not very good three bets me which could mean 88-AA, AK, AQ, AJ or maybe even KQ or KJ, or just that he still has two cards and a pulse. I almost disregard his raise in my mind but then my friend cold calls from MP which I thought AK or perhaps AQs or KQs.
One other cold call and then farmer bill (who will always call or bet when no one else does) caps in from the SB!
I call thinking I really need a set here on this flop.
Everyelse calls and five to the flop.

Flop ($200): 6 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

SB leads out.
I reach for my chips, think for a second and then fold.


Good???Bad?? Ugly????.....or Standard??

Thanks for the help!


FsuPlayer



BTW I ended up $200 in the game. I was up over $400 but got hit on a couple of rivers when two straights, a flush, and one hand when the bottom card paired so that my TPTK was taken down with trips /images/graemlins/crazy.gif. The game however was loose, pretty aggressive with some monster pots.
Two memorable hands, quad sevens took down queens full (both had two each in the hole) when the dealer put down the turn too soon. They resumed the betting, shuffeled the cards back in and the fourth seven then hit the board!!!
Another pot was capped six ways preflop ($240), the flop was CR'd by the SB, then re CR'd by the UTG who had flopped the straight with 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif.
The game was at time as loose as some $4-8 games I have played, but more aggressive.
I was great times though and I feel that I can def. hang at the $10-20 games at Biloxi.

[steveyz]

Given your read on the SB, this fold seems way too weak too me. You need to raise and if it's 2 bets back to you, then consider folding. I can imagine SB betting a wide range of hands here and what you want to do is to get a feel for where the pre-flop 3-bettor and your cold calling friend are.
The pot is very big and you want do what you can to get your opponents who are on overcards to fold. This is a perfect situation to get someone with AK and no diamond to fold.

[andyfox]

Flop is 9d-8d-6d, small blind capped pre-flop, I'm in the BB with no diamonds and no straight draw and three more players behind me. I have to avoid aces, kings, tens, sevens, fives and diamonds on each of the next two cards. Next hand.

Sounds like you're making too many straights. When I'm making a bunch of straights, it usually means I'm leaking a bit pre-flop.

[SinCityGuy]

I wouldn't be surprised if most of the posters disagree with me, but I think this is a good early laydown on your part. Yes, the pot is big. But a closer examination of the situation reveals numerous problems.

The flop is a board 3-flush and a board 3-straight in a multiway pot. If someone doesn't already have a flush or a straight, there's a good chance that they will have one before the river. Any /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A, K, T, 5 or 7 pretty much dooms your hand. You might also already be behind to AA or KK.

If you consider all of these factors, plus the amount of money that you'll undoubtedly be forced to put into the pot, I think it's a good laydown.

[fsuplayer]

Andyfox-
Looking at my post, I dont think I worded it clear enough. I was up over $400 in the game when I got rivered a couple of times by two straights, a flush and a bottom pair.
The open ender and the flush didnt sting much, but the bottom pair one and the inside one card straight my opponent made ofter calling me with bottom pair kinda hurt my aces (and stack) a little. /images/graemlins/frown.gif. That is one of the things about moving up...some of the same suckouts, but for much more $$.

Sorry for the confusion and thanks for the response!

FsuPlayer

[Rick Nebiolo]

FsuPlayer,

Your hand has three big problems.

First, it appears to be about even money to be hopelessly behind to an overpair, set, or flush held by at least one of your opponents.

Second, even if it is ahead right now a large part of the deck will put it hopelessly behind with this board and two cards to come.

Third, it doesn't play well when this type of player (Farmer Bill) bets into you and you have such a field behind you.

OTOH, the pot is big and you might want to invest one raise in order to see what happens. These middle cards should not have hit drunk LAG or your friend, and your friend may lay down a hand such as a non diamond AK or even KK. A cold call from the other player would be problematical. A rerise from Farmer Bill and you should be done with it.

The more I look at it the more I believe a fold is correct and now I'm going to say it isn't that close either.

~ Rick

[Schmed]

I was actually surprised to see so many say how good this lay down is. I guess it's good based on what is likely to come off as someone said there's only like 9 million cards in the deck you don't want to see. On the other hand if you're looking at a couple of AK, AQs, (not diamonds of course), and a lower pair which is likely you're not in all that bad of shape that's why I would raise and see how it all fell out after that.

[Nightwish]

I haven't read any other responses, but this is a horrible, AWFUL fold. You need to raise here. It's not even close.

[fsuplayer]

You said that you didnt read the other responses, but did you even read all of my original post?
I said that this is my first time at a much higher limit and that I was looking for responses that might help me in the future when I can return to these games regularly.

My point is that responses such as yours, do nothing for myself or other people that look to these forums for advice regarding certain hands and theories.

Your responses gave no valid points or reasons regarding your conclusion.

Since you took the time to go ahead and use the bold feature in regarding my play, please take a little additional time to point out WHY this play seems to be so terrible and why you might choose to raise and what is your plan on later streets if a scare card (about half the deck) does/does not hit.

Oh, and the fact that a calling station four bet me preflop from the small blind and then bet out a flop which he probably didnt hit extremely hard.
Since he is a bad player, I dont think he got tricky and four bet me with J10s for the hell of it.
In other words, he has a big pocket pair and will call me down.

FsuPlayer

[Nightwish]

The fact that the SB is a poor player is exactly why you need to raise. Had this been a rock who capped it, then you could safely conclude that he has AA/KK. However, it is not too unlikely that he has AdKx or something like JTs. By raising, you are hoping to get AKo (with no diamond) hands behind you to fold. You are not going to get A/K/Q of diamonds to fold. However, you will charge him double. If it comes around 3-bet to you, then you can decide whether you want to continue. All I'm saying is that you don't have enough information right now and quite possibly have the best hand, so folding right now makes no sense.

[fsuplayer]

Well I am glad I posted this hand bc at the time I folded bc I thought that there was a good chance that I had one clean out in the deck, which was the Qh, which is still no good if someone has flopped the flush.

I wasnt sure whether I had the monsters under the bed problems or not, but most of the replies look like its 50-50.

One thing is for sure is that if I was to continue, I would def. make it two bets to who ever is in behind me.





Results:
I folded.
Drunk kid called, friend calls and other guy folds.

Turn: 3 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif putting out the four flush.
Farmer Bill checks, drunk kid comes alive and bets, my friend begrudgingly calls, and farmer bill bitches to himself, holds up A /images/graemlins/heart.gifA /images/graemlins/club.gif towards in front of himself as if to curse them and folds.
River: blank

A drunk bet and a friendly call...
Drunk:K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifQ /images/graemlins/spade.gif

Friend:J /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif

It figures that the KQo takes down the pot when AA, QQ and JJ are all dealt preflop /images/graemlins/grin.gif.

Again thanks for the responses and the ideas,

FsuPlayer

[fsuplayer]

BTW:
What do you think of my friends play with his JJ on all streets?

He is a lurker of this site and we had several ideas, but werent sure which is correct in that type of game.
I usually try to three bet jacks if I can get it heads up, but obviously that wouldnt be possible here.

Thanks again,

FsuPlayer

[Senor Choppy]

Good fold considering the type of player betting into you, although possibly for the wrong reasons. If it was the opponent that made you fold and not the $ at stake, good job.

BTW, congrats on moving up /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Mackie]

Not weak at all. This is exactly the kind of hand that will send a large number of your chips to someone else. Fold. It may not seem obvious at the time, but a fold here is the correct play, and it's not close. Raising is a VERY DISTANT second best play.