Mathew Hilger/Internet Texas Holdem' Starting Hand

[SunTzu68]

I have been reviewing Hilger's book and looking at the starting hand recommendations. I don't agree with some of his list (understanding that starting hand can be very table specific, ie. how aggressive/passive, loose/tight a table is). I wanted to know what people on the board thought of smooth calling JJ from early position preflop. This has always been a standard raise for me....curious on other's thoughts........

[Jezebel]

Some of the most hotly debated threads on this forum have involved what to do with JJ preflop. Check out the archives by searching for "JJ preflop". After reading both sides of the argument, I am with the raise it camp.

[SunTzu68]

I participated in those debates at the time, and much of the discussion was how to play it in situation such as in the big blind on a very loose table. This is the first time I have seen a guideline in a book to smooth call with it from early position....seems like you are inviting people to beat you with this play.

[jdl22]

I think that by smooth calling you are basically playing for a set. This is likely to be profitable, although raising may be more so.

[King Yao]

There was a long thread by Mason Malmuth (one of his Hands to Talk About posts) where he limped in UTG with JJ.

[sthief09]

yeah but that was in a loose 30-60 game. you can't compare that to these games.

not raising with JJ in a LL game is retarded.



yes, I said retarded

[King Yao]

is Internet Texas Hold'em for low limit games only? I thought it was geared towards 10-20 online games.

[nicky g]

Has anyone else read/reviewed this book? I've not heard of it, any good?

[SunTzu68]

Overall the book is very good. I don't agree with everything in it however.

If you smooth call you are playing for a set, however in alot of the 15/30 or 20/40 games typically there are not enough people coming in to give you the proper odds to draw to the set. I would prefer to get some of the Ax suited, QJ, AJ hands out by raising preflop. I don't want to give a cheap peek at the flop to hands that could easily out draw me.

[BugsBunny]

[ QUOTE ]
Has anyone else read/reviewed this book? I've not heard of it, any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Mason gave it a 7 in the review in this post (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=450677&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)

[sthief09]

I haven't read it /images/graemlins/blush.gif

but let me rephrase that. not raising JJ in online middle-limit games is retarded /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[sthief09]

sorry to nit pick, but you definitely don't want AJ or QJ folding when you have JJ.

[King Yao]

while I agree with you that raising with JJ UTG is the right play, I would not go so far as calling it 'retarded'.

[sthief09]

I was just making light of the long thread about people using the word retarded

classy I know

[Lost Wages]

This is the first time I have seen a guideline in a book to smooth call with it from early position

HEPFAP page 25, 4th paragraph.

Lost Wages

[bygmesterf]

[ QUOTE ]
Overall the book is very good. I don't agree with everything in it however.

If you smooth call you are playing for a set, however in alot of the 15/30 or 20/40 games typically there are not enough people coming in to give you the proper odds to draw to the set. I would prefer to get some of the Ax suited, QJ, AJ hands out by raising preflop. I don't want to give a cheap peek at the flop to hands that could easily out draw me.

[/ QUOTE ]

The key question is what is the probability of seeing Overcards on the flop?. Becuase that is what influences your play, if you going to play a hand for it's high card value.

KK is pretty safe to play for High card value becuase there is only 1 overcard. 44 is not safe to play for High card value cause it has a lot of overcards.

JJ is about the break even point for this (51.82% chance of an overcard). So you can chose to play JJ for High card value or for set value(a draw). High Card value means you want few opponents, Set value means you want alot of opponents.

If folks at your table will only call EP raises with Group 1 hands. Then you are better off not raising. Since only people who have you beat will call or raise you (Very Bad). Limping may entice other people to enter the pot, and you minimize your preflop investment as well. If people will call EP raises with weaker hands then you should consider open raising.

Becuase it is a close desicion, It dosn't really matter too much, so perhaps you should randomize by limping with mixed suit Jacks, and raising with monotone Jacks.

[jasonHoldEm]

I'm reading this right now...I'm only about half way through the book, but at this point I think it's going to replace WLLHE as my recommendation to newbies. I think it's a solid book.

jHE

[crockpot]

i'd rate the book a 9 out of 10 if it's the first hold 'em book you pick up, and a 6 out of 10 otherwise. the book definitely presents a solid winning strategy, but if you've already read other books on hold 'em and general poker theory, it won't teach you much you don't already know.

the book does do a decent job of explaining the nuances of the online game, but obviously due to changing conditions you can't expect him to give an accurate picture of which site/limit to play at.

[nicky g]

Thanks to all for the reviews. I imagine the book is about limit only, is that the case?

[Freudian]

I liked it. I think its good for laying the foundation (and then you can add stuff from other sources). I especially like the "Test your skills" sections where the reader is forced into active mode, instead of just passively reading what you should do. I think it makes the points stick in the readers mind.

[TimM]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reading this right now...I'm only about half way through the book, but at this point I think it's going to replace WLLHE as my recommendation to newbies. I think it's a solid book.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have already started doing this, because of all of the specific hand examples in the quizzes, and the way flop play is laid out systematically by type of hand and type of flop.

[mchilger]

Sun, thanks for the post and thanks everyone for the favorable reviews.

I've had a lot of questions about the charts. The first thing I want to point out is that the charts are not designed to be the optimal strategy for an advanced player. The charts are intended for beginning to intermediate players to help put them in potentially profitable situations while also minimizing fluctuations. The better a player you are the more hands you can play...where you draw this distinction is debatable.

So I made a lot of judgment calls with that focus. For example, I like playing Axs from every position in almost every type of game even at limits of $30-$60...but I think many beginning players will get into too much trouble with this hand from early position so I don't recommend playing this hand in the charts. Not optimal strategy for an advanced player but I believe the best strategy for players starting out.

Another point worth mentioning is that for beginners, sometimes it is better to sacrifice just a slight amount in expectation if it minimizes the fluctuations. There are so many close decisions when it comes to starting hand play expectation that I prefer to recommend the one with the least fluctuation. For example, sometimes raising or calling can have practically the same expectation...hence the long arguments and debates on some of the posts here over JJ. Strategy with less fluctuation is better on a beginner's bankroll (but only when the expectation is very close).

There is a chapter on Starting Hands for Advanced players immediately following the charts which explains when/how you can deviate from the guidelines given in the charts. Here I talk about strategy from early position and say, "In a tight game, you can consider raising first in with the medium pairs 77 and higher". I often raise with JJ from early position in games like $30-$60 and especially in tournaments.

So I think you always have to put these types of debates into perspective. Strategy for advanced players is different than strategy for beginning players and strategy is also dependent on your bankroll situation.

Hopefully this explains a little more how the charts were developed.

Best regards, Matthew