Got an earful. But will do it again, routine, correct?

[Joe Tall]

15/30 Pacific

One terrible limper (ASAP-any suited any position, AAAP - any ace any position, any 3-gap+ broadway) to me and a LAGish (overplays post flop, likes to get tricky) SB completes.

I raise w/J /images/graemlins/spade.gifT /images/graemlins/spade.gif both call.

Flop: 9 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif5 /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif

SB checks, I bet...

Comments? Or just routine?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[DocHollyday]

Joe, the info you provide is a little bit too less to give an accurate answer, but anyways, if you are going to raise out of the big blind and there are only 2 players left, I think it is pretty routine that you bet the flop, no matter what comes. I mean, it is possible that you can win the pot right here.

But, I wouldn't recommend to raise a JTs in this position. This hand has more value in mutliway pots, than against only two opponents. I'd just check and take a look at the flop.

[Steve Giufre]

Not even close. If you check the flop you encourage him to lead into you on the turn regardless of what he has. If that happens and a brick falls, you are looking at a nasty call you might need to make. Bet the flop, hopefully you'll win it right there, if not, maybe you'll get a free one on the turn.

[Joe Tall]

I wouldn't recommend to raise a JTs in this position

Even against opponents that you are sure are making preflop mistakes?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[risen]

Even bad players catch cards, and lowering your starting and raising requirements that far to take advantage of the weaknesses of other players is an expensive undertaking. It's easier to punish these players when you have the goods, and JTs while not a shabby hand, is not the goods in this situation. While you can outplay these folks postflop, you're out of position. You also might not be able to get players of this skill level out of the hand when they catch any piece of the flop or on a board like this, even any Ace.

[Schmed]

This looks like it's pretty ABC. Overcards and a gutshot equals bet out...... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Joe Tall]

This looks like it's pretty ABC

So you make the preflop raise?

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Steve Giufre]

Hey Doc,

I think autobetting the flop no matter what comes is a really bad idea, especially since players seem to be checkraising a lot more these days. I think you can make an aurgument for always betting the flop when you have raised and are head up, but I rarely try to run a hand past two oppenents, especially when I have missed and a couple of cards in the playing zone show up. I probably check behind about 20% percent of the time head up, maybe a little less. I usually only do when I get an ugly flop, and I'm not up agaist someone who is likely to try to bluff me on the turn just because I checked the flop.

[DocHollyday]

Hi Steve,

I agree, that most auto-stuff in poker may not be wise, but I think if you show strength before the flop, you shouldn't wimp instantly when you don't connect postflop.

Why do you rarely try to run over two opponents? I think this number is still less enough for trying to push them out of the pot. Further I actually see only one card in the playing zone, the 9.

I just can refer to Bob Ciaffone's improve your poker, where he recommends a follow through bet most of the times. But anyways, I have to say again, it is almost not enough information given in this post to give an accurate answer. In the first place I don't like raising with this hand in this position, but when you do, follow through, especially against only two foes.

[Schmed]

So you make the preflop raise?

In the BB I'll raise out of there at times with hands like that. I'd auto raise with 5 or more. A lot of time I would just check as well. Probably about 65-35 leaning towards checking. I think raising with a hand like that out of the BB increases fluctiations but assuming you play better than them post flop it puts you in a position to win the pot with a worse hand when you have 3 or less in.

[DocHollyday]

I agree with risen's answer.

Fact is just, although those guys are doing preflop mistakes you still need a hand usually to get the pot. I don't know how the awful opponents play in your game, but in mine they keep calling me down, so I need to show a winner.

Don't misunderstand me, you have quite a hand, but not with this number of opponents and position. I'd rather go for this play to mix up my game, when I face a couple of solid, or weak-tight players, which are able to let go a hand.

However, I still have the opinion, if you raise, you need to bet that flop with only two opponents. Depending on the turn card I'd fire another barrel. But be prepared to muck if you get raised.

[Schmed]

You would bet that flop if you had raised or not. Gutshot draw and overcards is almost auto-bet-out.

[bernie]

Not bet this flop? Did everyone miss that he has

A) 2 overcards
B) A gutshot draw to the nuts
C) Backdoor flush

Hell yes, you bet this flop. You're likely the favorite in the hand.

If you get KJ/QJ KT/QT or any other card over your J to fold it's worth it. It doesnt have to succeed everytime, either.

There are many reasons to bet out here. No way am i checking this flop.

Preflop:

If the opponents go too far with their hands anyways, this raise loses some value. But it is still good to do once in awhile with these types of hands.

It's up to you and your knowledge of the opponents as far as how far to keep betting. Sometimes, id bet this all the way through the river, even if i miss. Sometimes ill only go through the turn. Turn card is another factor in whether i bet again. With an LAG, if a spade hits, you might go for the c/r on the turn.

But the flop is a gimme bet.

b

[turnipmonster]

with players that play as loose as you describe preflop, what do you think your chances are of winning the pot on the flop with a bet? what do you think your chances are of getting checkraised by the LAG in the SB?

those are the two things I would be thinking about before betting the flop. but I suck at limit, so I'm interested to know if this is an autobet for most people.

what do you think about a check here, and if it gets checked through raising the turn on any spade,A,K,J,T or 9?
an LAG is sure to fire on the turn with anything if the flop gets checked.

--turnipmonster

[TJSWAN]

[ QUOTE ]
Not bet this flop? Did everyone miss that he has

A) 2 overcards
B) A gutshot draw to the nuts
C) Backdoor flush

b

[/ QUOTE ]

Not only all of the above,plus a Q or K on the turn will make his straight draw open ended.


Tim

[Joe Tall]

with players that play as loose as you describe preflop, what do you think your chances are of winning the pot on the flop with a bet?

Probably a little less than I like it and this is something I should have considered more. Instead of, "They have cheese, raise!"

JT, spade and of course, a nine and I'm raisin' if the LAG bets the turn infront of me.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[turnipmonster]

treat yourself right, joe, and give yourself 6 more outs and raise an A or K. the fish put you on AK after a flop check, don't disappoint them /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

--turnipmonster

[DcifrThs]

working backwards:

flop bet= ruitine. you have any 8, any spade to give a good draw, and any T or J (more likely the J being clean than the T) to give you likely winning hands. that bet is certainly ruitine.

the preflop raise on the other hand is quiestionable and really depends on what you feel it accomplishes. you say sb is a LAG. some lags are lags upon INITIATING action and just call in the case of others raising. other LAGs stay decently in control until there is a raise and NOW they're off to the races. others still are a combination and are intiating and responding to raises with more and more raising. if you cannot classify your lag here i'd say your raise is either a small winner, dead even, or small loser.

the reasons it's a winner is that you can tie the LAG on where he'd normally not be tied on. but the loose terrible guy will be there no matter what and that makes the 2:1 on your raise a little less profitable b/c the implied odds you have from him remain constant. in fact, given that you raised, you've just voluntarily REDUCED your impliededness (new term lol) with respect to the terrible guy. PLUS you may have just triggered the lag which will make you have to pay more in unexpected( or expected) places with any draw you hit. FURTHER, by doubling the size of the pot, you effectively reduce the mistakes they can make from big ones to marginal ones and you're only getting 2:1 on it...

so the raise needs justification: WHY did you make it?
-Barron

[TaintedRogue]

I like it. A ck on the flop and then ck raise on the turn may sell em on a flopped set, plus there is less money in the pot if it's ck'd around on the flop, making it harder for a weak draw to call.

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
it is possible that you can win the pot right here.


[/ QUOTE ]
not very possible on a low board against limpers, but what the hell, bet it anyway, Joe has outs


Kenny

[bernie]

If i got c/r from an LAG in this spot, im 3 betting it. If he had you beat preflop, he'd have raised. Even if he has you beat on the flop, you have many, many outs to improve.

If i checked the flop and the other guy bet, id also c/r the flop. Though, this play is much more effective with more players in.

b

[Joe Tall]

I bet the flop the LP limper folded and the LAG-SB called.

The turn was an 8 for the nuts and I bet again, the SB check-raised, I 3-bet, he capped.

The river was a blank, the SB bet I raised and he held A6 for the lower end of the str8.

There were a couple of comments about the preflop raise, so I decided to post it.

Thanks for your responses.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Nate tha' Great]

Hi Joe,

The play on the flop is routine, certainly given your raise preflop, and probably even if you'd knuckled.

I don't know that I love the preflop raise, though. Your hand might be a wee bit better than the crap that the other players limped with, but it's not a hell of a lot better, and if this is a typical Pacific game, it isn't like they're going to fold easily, especially in a raised pot. I'll make the raise in this spot ... I dunno ... 20 percent of the time, but it usually requires a strong table image and/or weak-tight opponents.

[sthief09]

against a terrible player who plays any 2 suited, and a LAG who will presumably raise with anything decent in his spot, I don't understand why everyone has a problem with the PF raise... but I don't play 15/30 so I'll keep my big mouth shut /images/graemlins/blush.gif

[Softrock]

I don't know that Joe was doing it for this reason but I believe HFAP recommends ocassionally raising in the BB with medium suited connectors because it disguises your play and can make the pot odds correct for you to play your draws - I recall doing this once and flopping a gutshot and then backdooring a flush and to this day my opponent still remembers that hand I played so loosely. I think the fact that your opponents will call you down all the way makes this PF raise an OK play because it further ensures you're getting equity on most of your flopped draws.