KK with two callers...where did I go wrong?

[AtlBrvs4Life]

This just happened. One of the weirdest hands I've ever been involved in. Keep in mind this was a party $10+$1 and these guys didn't seem very smart from watching their previous hands. I ended up winning the game anyways. Ironically, the hand I won with was also KK.

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t30 (8 handed)

BB (t920)
UTG (t755)
AtlBrvs4Life (t2240)
MP1 (t260)
MP2 (t1075)
CO (t725)
Button (t1065)
SB (t960)

Preflop: AtlBrvs4Life is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">AtlBrvs4Life raises to t90</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls t75, BB calls t60.

Flop: (t270) 8/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets t30</font>, <font color="CC3333">AtlBrvs4Life raises to t270</font>, <font color="CC3333">SB raises to t870 (All-In)</font>, BB calls t800 (All-In), AtlBrvs4Life calls t600.

Turn: (t2840) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in) </font>

River: (t2840) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 2 all-in) </font>

Final Pot: t2840
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: t2760 (t2760), between BB, AtlBrvs4Life and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (t2760).</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: t80 (t80), between AtlBrvs4Life and SB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by AtlBrvs4Life (t80).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 7s 9s (straight, nine high).
AtlBrvs4Life shows Kc Kh (two pair, kings and fives).
SB shows 6c, 6s (a full house, Sixes full of fives).
Outcome: SB wins t2760. AtlBrvs4Life wins t80. </font>

[CMangano]

I think you went wrong by running into the flopped nuts and a flopped set. Not much you can do here. This is a tough laydown for just 600 chips, especially when you have that many chips and the pot is now a million chips, plus you get to see the showdown.

[Prickly Pete]

Actually I'd fold to the allin raise and call. It's most likely that your overpair is no longer good.

[thomastem]

Fold the all-in call.

If blinds are calling your 3x bets pre-flop ramp them up to 4x on your premiums. It wouldn't have helped you on this hand but is more profit in the long run.

[NotMitch]

At the $10+1 level at Party folding here is a huge mistake. You are ahead here more often than you are behind. You are getting a great price to call both all ins and you still have a solid stack to play with if you lose.

[Profit]

not really specific to this hand, but early in a tournament i really don't follow the raise 3x bb with high pockets like most suggest. I'm usually raising 5x bb (in first two stages of tourney) It just seems to me that a raise to 90 receives very little respect in the 10+1's. Had the blinds been 10-15, there is no way i'm only raising KK to 45, id probably get 8 callers (the 9th woulda accidentally hit fold /images/graemlins/smile.gif) Although this wouldnt have helped you in this hand most likely.

IMO, this is a pretty scary flop when going up against the blinds. I like your initial raise of 270, if you get any callers or reraises i would watch out. With callers alone i would suspect a flush draw, with the reraise i'm assuming this person now realizes he has action and doesn't want anyone catching a diamond. With 2 people all in ahead of me, i have to believe that i am now behind by atleast one of these guys. Could they both really be on flush draws and or 1 pair? I doubt it, but it is possible and really the only thing you are hoping for if you call. I would have guessed flush draw and 2 pair. Even though it was only another 5-600 for you and if you call you are still in good shape with 1200 chips, i think i let this one go, still have 1800 chips and am in great shape.

[Mackas]

I agree, I'd fold to the all in and call, the combination of both, in particular the call, being extremely indicative that you're beat.

The only thing I do sympathise with is that its a party $10 sng and there is a chance you might end up looking at A7 (up and donw str8) and K8 (Top pair) or some such nonsense. Even taking that possibility into account a call would still be wrong but knowing its wrong (which I suspect you knew even at the time) and actually folding are two different things. Given all the chips you already had I can see where it was tempting and still would be prone to this sort of frustrated call myself unfortunately.

[thomastem]

[ QUOTE ]
At the $10+1 level at Party folding here is a huge mistake. You are ahead here more often than you are behind. You are getting a great price to call both all ins and you still have a solid stack to play with if you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two opponents, 1 has re-raised your strong raise and the other has called almost cold. Calling this is throwing chips away.

Save your stack for better situations and remember the idea is to survive to the money.

I do like the 5X pre-flop bet early.

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
At the $10+1 level at Party folding here is a huge mistake. You are ahead here more often than you are behind. You are getting a great price to call both all ins and you still have a solid stack to play with if you lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are two opponents, 1 has re-raised your strong raise and the other has called almost cold. Calling this is throwing chips away.

Save your stack for better situations and remember the idea is to survive to the money.

I do like the 5X pre-flop bet early.

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I fold this. In these games people treat TPTK like it is the nuts, and will push it on a draw. He is getting like 5-1 on his call for the last 600 and I think he is good here half the time. Plus even if he loses he still has a very playable stack. And if he wins he is in command of this SnG.

[Prickly Pete]

By my calculation, he's only getting a little under 4 to 1 on the call. 2240 : 600. At any rate, that does make it tempting, because I agree you'll see some making this play with 87 here. So maybe you're close to getting the odds necessary to make the call. But in no way do I agree that he is good half the time here.

[thomastem]

[/ QUOTE ]

No way I fold this. In these games people treat TPTK like it is the nuts, and will push it on a draw. He is getting like 5-1 on his call for the last 600 and I think he is good here half the time. Plus even if he loses he still has a very playable stack. And if he wins he is in command of this SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so we disagree. I believe you need the read on your opponents that they will play reckless with top pair and draws this early rather than assume they are maniacs because it's Party 10-1.

By the way, even if you are ahead here 50% an open end straight has about a 34% chance and top pair top kicker has about a 24% of tripping up or hitting an Ace for 2 pair.

Now if (BIG IF) 50% of the time we have maniacs going all-in with weak hands as you are assuming then we have a slight profit with high variance if the pot is giving 5-1.

If the table has maniacs like this we can find higher EV situations with lower variance against them.

I would still fold in this situation even if I was ahead 50% of the time. I would need a strong read to put me ahead more often.

[Profit]

alright, 10+1 SNG's are not the best players as a whole, but like many have mentioned you do have to have a feel for your opponents. I have played with some terrible players as well as some very good players at the 10+1 level. So i dont think we can just make blanket statements that because th is is a 10+1 its a call. With two players all in, i find it hard at any level to assume that i am ahead 50% of the time with kk.

[CrisBrown]

Hi Braves,

Ironically, I don't think your opponents were as idiotic as many might seem to believe. You open-raised 3xBB from EP, which represents a big pair. SB has a small pair, and is getting almost 2:1 pre-flop, plus implied odds. Now BB is getting 7:2 pre-flop, with ideal position in a multi-way, raised pot (the raiser to his immediate left). Small pairs and suited connectors are "peekable" here. I'm not saying these were brilliant calls, but they weren't idiotic either.

So the flop is 8-6-5 with two diamonds. It's bet into you (first warning sign: pre-flop caller bets into pre-flop raiser on coordinated flop), you raise, and you're check-reraised all-in (second warning sign: pre-flop caller check-raises pre-flop raiser on coordinated flop) with an all-in caller (third warning sign: first bettor calls the all-in check-raise on coordinated flop)....

I don't play at PartyPoker, so I don't know the overall quality of play there, but in my games I'd know my KK was dead here. SB might -- might! -- be on a smaller overpair (QQ or maybe JJ), but BB almost certainly is not. One of them has hit a hand ... and as it turned out, they both had.

This goes to the heart of what William and I were saying about respecting raises/reraises on the flop when you're holding AA, KK, or AK with TPTK. Unimproved big pairs and TPTK are not auto-all-in hands at the flop, and especially not if you raised pre-flop and are bet-reraised or check-raised at the flop. Your pre-flop raise represented a big pair. Your flop raise represented a big pair. The all-in-check-reraise and bet-all-in-call said "I'm not afraid of a big pair."

Time to let the big pair go.

Cris

[AtlBrvs4Life]

To tell you the truth, I did feel like I was beat at the time, but called out of frustration. I do this sometimes (actually, more than sometimes). I felt like one was on a flush draw and the other had me beat. With my stack, I couldn't help but call. Thanks for all the help guys.

P.S. I just hit my first ever ROYAL FLUSH while playing a $10+$1 SNG! AKQJ10 of clubs!

[NotMitch]

[ QUOTE ]


[/ QUOTE ]

No way I fold this. In these games people treat TPTK like it is the nuts, and will push it on a draw. He is getting like 5-1 on his call for the last 600 and I think he is good here half the time. Plus even if he loses he still has a very playable stack. And if he wins he is in command of this SnG.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok so we disagree. I believe you need the read on your opponents that they will play reckless with top pair and draws this early rather than assume they are maniacs because it's Party 10-1.

By the way, even if you are ahead here 50% an open end straight has about a 34% chance and top pair top kicker has about a 24% of tripping up or hitting an Ace for 2 pair.

Now if (BIG IF) 50% of the time we have maniacs going all-in with weak hands as you are assuming then we have a slight profit with high variance if the pot is giving 5-1.

If the table has maniacs like this we can find higher EV situations with lower variance against them.

I would still fold in this situation even if I was ahead 50% of the time. I would need a strong read to put me ahead more often.

[/ QUOTE ]


Hmmm you got me thinking. Need to run some numbers. Just so Im on track the 3 numbers that are important to this sitution are as follows. One the T chip EV of the call, two the cash EV of having ~T4000 if you win the hand vs 5 opponents, and three the cash EV of having T~900 vs 7 opponents. Does this seem right?

Edit: Of course also the EV of folding anding being left with T~2000 (duh).