View Full Version : 2+2 Table hands vs sfer.
Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed)
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, Hero calls.
Flop: (6 SB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, SB folds, Hero calls.
Turn: (5 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.
River: (11 BB) 8/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 17 BB
Results in white below: <font color="white">
Hero shows 8h 9h (two pair, nines and eights).
MP2 shows Qc Kc (flush, king high).
Outcome: MP2 wins 17 BB. </font>
i dont understand why you raised the turn maybee im missing somthing please explain
bakku
05-09-2004, 10:38 PM
I think you played this hand fine, but I don't like sfer's turn reraise..It was a bit over the top
carlosblack
05-10-2004, 12:07 AM
New and trying to learn. I would have three bet here without hesitation. Hero is BB that wakes up on 529, I have a four flush, a ten gives me a straight and I would count any queen and king as an out.
Thats more outs than I can shake a stick at, what am I missing?
Week 3 Stats:
Total Hands 1720, VoIp 17.15, VoPSB 27.67, SbFold 80%, BBFold 33.33% Steal 17.65, WSF 30.89% Ammount won 35.28, BB/100 2.05, SD 41.88%, Won at SD 45%, PF Raise 6.98%
bakku
05-10-2004, 12:13 AM
[ QUOTE ]
New and trying to learn. I would have three bet here without hesitation. Hero is BB that wakes up on 529, I have a four flush, a ten gives me a straight and I would count any queen and king as an out.
Thats more outs than I can shake a stick at, what am I missing?
[/ QUOTE ]
The BB likes his hand and it looks like he isn't folding. Even though you have monster draws you're 3-betting with K high which BB seems to be able to beat. What if the BB caps? You just lost 2 extra BB if you miss the river.
carlosblack
05-10-2004, 12:26 AM
But but.. my outs, my precious outs <g>
It seems that I am seriously overvaluing "posibilities" this is hitting me in the head with AK hands that miss.
Thats 4Ts, 9flush cards, 3k and 3q for 19 outs or 60something percent win rate, not enough huh?
blackaces13
05-10-2004, 12:57 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Thats 4Ts, 9flush cards, 3k and 3q for 19 outs or 60something percent win rate, not enough huh?
[/ QUOTE ]
You need to rethink this here CB. 4T's leaves only leave 8 flush cards because the Tc is one of them.
The K and Q outs are very tainted. There are a lot of hands that would CR the turn that would beat a lone pair of Kings or Queens so counting those as 6 outs is very much overvaluing them IMO.
If a Q falls there is 8, 9, _, J, Q on the board so any T now beats you further tainting the Q outs.
One final and very important thing is that 19 outs (which we don't have here anyway) is not a 60% winner with only ONE card to come. If you had this many outs after the flop then you can get in there and raise away and be a slight favorite over a top-pair or something but this is with TWO cards still coming. Very important distinction.
So, basically you've got 12 solid outs and 6 very shakey ones. Being that there are still 46 unseens cards we can see that the likleyhood of improving to the best hand on the river is well below 50%. This is why since it seems apparent that the BB is not going to fold after leading into a PF raiser and CRing the turn, a semi-bluff move here is not a profitable one and may likely be capped making it even worse.
I may have made a few minor errors in that whole analysis which I usually do but that's the gist as I understand it. Also, don't worry about stuff like this not being clear to you right away. I'm sure you're a lot better than I was when I first started.
Keep posting and good luck.
carlosblack
05-10-2004, 01:15 AM
blackaces13 what an incredible post!
BA>4T's leaves only leave 8 flush cards because the Tc is one of them.
CB>doh!
BA>If a Q falls there is 8, 9, _, J, Q on the board so any T now beats you further tainting the Q outs.
CB> I would never have been able to see something like this. Any suggestions on how to get better at figuring out tainted outs?
BA> not a 60% winner with only ONE card to come.
CB> double doh! that's what happens when you try to memorize tables you don't understand.
Bottom line, I don't understand outs. Any suggestions on how to get better at understanding this topic? Are there any books/software/articles that can help?
thank you thank you thank you for this post.
blackaces13
05-10-2004, 01:36 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Any suggestions on how to get better at understanding this topic? Are there any books/software/articles that can help?
[/ QUOTE ]
The only way a thing like more quickly identifying and evaluating outs is with practice, and a lot of it. Just like any other skill it gets easier with time. I would recommend posting any hands that are giving you trouble on here and then get involved in the discussion even if you're wrong, no make that ESPECIALLY if you're wrong.
You are posting a lot in here and I think this is the best place to learn the basics and some finer points of the game. Before long you'll notice that you get corrected less and less and sooner than you think you'll realize that you know a lot more about things like outs and implied odds.
Of course there are books that help and I feel that HEPFAP (Hold em Poker for Advanced Players) and Winning Low Limit Hold 'em by Lee Jones are almost required reading. If you don't have these books run out and buy them. Read WLLHE first and don't feel like you have to read HPFAP until you FULLY understand WLLHE. HPFAP is tough sophisticated book and not an easy read, also it applies more to mid-limit games.
It just takes a bit of time. Stick with it and most of all DONT BE AFRAID TO BE WRONG. I'm wrong all the time here and I can't thank the people who take the time to correct me enough. Every mistake I have pointed out to me makes me a better player and puts more $ in my pocket.
ThrillFactor
05-10-2004, 01:50 AM
[ QUOTE ]
BA>If a Q falls there is 8, 9, _, J, Q on the board so any T now beats you further tainting the Q outs.
CB> I would never have been able to see something like this. Any suggestions on how to get better at figuring out tainted outs?
[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, I'm not surprised that you missed this one - it's not really there. If the Q falls on the river there would be no 8. Just goes to show you how complicated these things get sometimes. Still don't like the 3-bet, though.
blackaces13
05-10-2004, 01:59 AM
[ QUOTE ]
If the Q falls on the river there would be no 8.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yup. Like I said, I probably messed something up. I guess that really proves my point about my being wrong all the time. Thanks for pointing that out.
I thought I had 12 outs I could raise the river with, 6 more that would let me call. My rationale for 3-betting was that I could get Trix to fold 77/88 or QJ/KJ, which are the hands I put him on. Blech--I just made my draw more expensive.
Trix's coldcall is fine getting 5 to 1, but who was the SB and what were they coldcalling with?
Because he was aggressive and a club didnīt fall.
My table only goes to 21 outs and that isnīt enough to be ahead on turn. It will also be harder for him to get more than one bet in on the river if he improves.
77/88, maybe...Not sure I CR you with those anyway.
QJ/KJ, No way, not after the J comes on the turn.
SB was Rigoletto.
rigoletto
05-10-2004, 11:08 AM
I'm not sure what I (half) coldcalling with but there was a lot of grandstanding in that game, so I was calling pretty light at that point, probably some suited brodway.
MortalNuts
05-10-2004, 12:58 PM
Check out this post from a few months ago by majorkong (Ed Miller):
How many outs do I have? (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=472363&page=&view=&sb =5&o=)
It'll give you some practice, anyway.
cheers,
mn
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