AA vs. Mr. Fancy Play Syndrome

[SinCityGuy]

From a good 20/40 game in downtown Las Vegas at the Golden Nugget.

My main opponent in this hand strikes fear in the heart of all of the players at the table. Donned in a baseball cap, sunglasses and headphones, he has been putting on a show with his fancy flop, turn and river bluff raises and checkraises (and his great chip tricks). The most entertaining hands have been the ones involving him and a near clone of himself. They've been going at it -- four, five bets on the turn with no pair, no draw.

But I digress. In this hand, I'm merely pitted against the main FPS player and a straightforward ABC player.

I'm dealt A/images/graemlins/diamond.gif A/images/graemlins/club.gif UTG and raise. ABC calls from the CO and FPS calls from the SB. Three to the flop for 7 small bets.

Flop is J/images/graemlins/club.gif J/images/graemlins/heart.gif 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif

FPS checks, I bet, ABC folds and FPS raises.

OK, what's my plan here for the rest of the hand?

[risen]

He's got you in a tight situation here. When faced with a situation like this, I like the

3bet the flop with the intention of calling a 4bet.
Raise the turn with the intention of calling a 3bet because he will probably bet any turn card.
Bet/Raise the river with the intention of calling whatever comes back to you.

Line.

I wouldn't be sure I'm behind until getting check raised on the river because only a maniac will bluff into 3 consecutive aggressive actions, and since he's in the SB it really could be any 2 cards, Lets hope it was something with a 4.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I say plan to win / lose at least 3.5-4 more big bets however you play it. Reraising him on the flop is certainly viable, but given this player's tendencies, you may want to wait and pop him on the turn. Either way, you cannot give him a free turn card. Whether he bets into you, then you raise the turn, or he checks (as might happen if you had reraised the flop), you bet, then he FPS check-raises you, you have to take it to the river, knowing there is going to be some serious $$ going in the middle. The only time I would slow down here is if he three-bets you on the turn, but still, I'd call him down.

So to summarize my probable strategy ramblings...

reraise the flop. If he four bets, just call.

Raise the turn if he bets, bet if he checks, call any check-raises or three bets.

Call any river bets. Whether to value-bet the river (of course you must call any possible check-raises) is a judgement call on your part. However, against this type of player, you just gotta bite the bullet sometimes and ram and jam with them.

al

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
I say plan to win / lose at least 3.5-4 more big bets however you play it. Either way, you cannot give him a free turn card.

[/ QUOTE ]

Al,

What free card scares you? Indeed, I might just call this flop raise, and plan to check-call the turn and river, which minimizes my losses if he has a J and maximizes my winnings if he's going to bluff away his money.

[sthief09]

I don't like posting in here, as I don't play middle limits, but I though I should throw this in

calling down doesn't maximize your winnings against a guy who's willing to put 4-5 bets in on the turn with no pair

there's probably a 90% chance he's ahead against a tricky player. the goal is to convince his opponent he's weak so he'll get excessive action, which I think risen and capone's plans accomplish.

I do agree though that with AA on this board, that giving a free card on a JJ4r board isn't a problem, as if he doesn't have a J, he's got at most 2 outs. the problem is not letting his opponent spray the maximum around of chips around with what is very likely an inferior hand.

Also, I'm sure the guy would love to push hero off AK, making him think his 6 outs are no good. The great thing about this board is that villain can think he can represent a J, giving excessive action, and hero has no worries about a suckout (other than runner-runner), since he has aces-up with no straight of flush on the board. as I said, at best, villain has 2 outs if he doesn't hold a J.

[34TheTruth34]

My plan here would be to call the flop and raise the turn no matter what card comes. If he three-bets, I'd just call down. You're certainly not folding.

[Garland]

Just because he and his "near clone" have been going at it for 4 or 5 bets with nothing doesn't mean you'll get to do the same here. It all depends on what what kind of play interaction you've had in the past with him. They may have a history going, and unless you have that same history, I wouldn't be tempted to get fancy back with him.

There are no draws on the board on this rainbow flop. He has a hand that he's either way in front or way behind. If he actually has the J, you'll get to see the showdown cheapest. If he's bluffing, don't do anything to make him fold. You'll earn the most money that way. If he ever checks to you on future streets, then bet and call his potential checkraises.

Garland

[SinCityGuy]

Garland,

This is an interesting approach. The rope-a-dope strategy does have merit in certain situations, and this might be one of them.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
My plan here would be to call the flop and raise the turn no matter what card comes. If he three-bets, I'd just call down. You're certainly not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first inclination after getting raised on the flop.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My plan here would be to call the flop and raise the turn no matter what card comes. If he three-bets, I'd just call down. You're certainly not folding.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was my first inclination after getting raised on the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a bad inclination. If you are going to do this, then it is far superior to raise the river instead of the turn.

[SinCityGuy]

sthief09,

You make some good points.

I put myself on AK after calling his flop raise. He's representing a jack (which I don't believe that he actually has). I'm getting ready to tell him on the turn that I don't have AK. We'll see how prepared he is to convince me that he has a jack.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad inclination. If you are going to do this, then it is far superior to raise the river instead of the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister,

I'm always interested in your line of thinking on these hands. Could you elaborate a bit on why waiting until the river to raise would be better?

Thanks.

[rigoletto]

call down, raise the river. No need to hand him money or make him fold a bluff. I'm with Garland on the psychology of this.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad inclination. If you are going to do this, then it is far superior to raise the river instead of the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister,

I'm always interested in your line of thinking on these hands. Could you elaborate a bit on why waiting until the river to raise would be better?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which line is going to maximize the amount you get from 44?

[rigoletto]

This player has shown his ability to bluff 3-bet the turn and you don't like a 3-bet here. Most players are not likely to bluff 3-bet the river and he might even just call with a J fearing the boat.

[SpaceAce]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is a bad inclination. If you are going to do this, then it is far superior to raise the river instead of the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Clarkmeister,

I'm always interested in your line of thinking on these hands. Could you elaborate a bit on why waiting until the river to raise would be better?

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

You asked Clarkmeister and not me, but this seems to me to be the most obvious argument for waiting until the river to raise: If your opponent is bluffing and you raise the turn, you may fold him right there and gain only one bet. If you wait for the river, you will gain at least two bets (assuming he bets into you again on the river) and possibly three when he calls your raise with an inferior hand. If you're ahead, here, you are way ahead so why try and push him off anything?

SpaceAce

[risen]

What you're leaving out is, Mr Fancy Play syndrome is not the sort of person to lay down a bluff just because he's played back at. It's just another opportunity to take the pot down with a fancier play. Just like the poster last week who was happier about pulling off the hat trick than how he played the hand, you can extract a ridiculous amount of bets from this sort of player when they are drawing slim or dead (Spoken with confidence as a recovering Fancy Play addict)

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
Which line is going to maximize the amount you get from 44?

[/ QUOTE ]

are you trying to be funny here? 44 would have a full house. If you're saying which would way would maximize the amount you get out of a hand like 55 or 66, then raising the river would work better. But what if he is the type who will go off for a lot of bets with a second best hand? Or on a pure bluff? Then raising the turn would be better, no? I've found that even FPS players just shrug and call the river raise to see what you have (if they have something decent). But if you raise him on the turn after a rag comes and he has something like AK or QQ, then you could make a lot more this way. Some of these guys can't get it through their head that you have them beat and just keep giving you action with a worse hand.

Now that I think about it, I guess my way of playing would work much better against a maniac type, rather than just someone trying to be tricky.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
you can extract a ridiculous amount of bets from this sort of player when they are drawing slim or dead

[/ QUOTE ]

that's exactly what I was trying to say. This is the type of player that I was thinking about when I gave my answer of raising the turn. The closer to maniac the opponent is, the more I want to raise the turn. The closer to good player just trying to be tricky, the more I want to raise the river.

[34TheTruth34]

[ QUOTE ]
If you're ahead, here, you are way ahead so why try and push him off anything?


[/ QUOTE ]

you're not trying to push him off anything. you're trying to get him to put in a lot of bets with a second best hand that he thinks is good.

[elysium]

hi sin
if you have been calling and then check-raising a lot, then reraise and bet out, or call and bet out. either way should be o.k.; but, if you've been doing that a lot, then call and go for a check-raise.

this situation is linked up to your previous action. all you're concerned about is getting as many bets into the pot as you can. if you can't decide whether you've been doing a lot of anything in this particular game, then just reraise to tie him to the pot. if you've been reraising, but have given up on the turn a lot, then t=reraise and check-raise the turn.

if your opponent suspects that you would take your betting rythym into this level of consideration, then play it as you've been playing it.

fancy players usually try to label you and will usually expect that you won't be intelligent enough to vary unless you've given them reason to believe so. eventually, they will be reduced to looking for involuntary reflexes from you for a clue as what to do. provided you have mastered your involuntaries, that's fine too. now flinch with your powerhouse if you've been flinching a lot with weak hands.

[SinCityGuy]

I probably should have elaborated a bit more in my original post, but this guy is not a maniac. I have no doubt but that he is a winning mid-limit player. He just seems to have an addiction to FPS, that's all.

[Steve Giufre]

I've only read a couple responses, but I disagree with most of them. I would call down here and show him the winner. I doubt this guy is good enuogh to checkraise you on the flop with a jack. But by just calling, you encourage him to continue betting a likely weaker hand into you, and you dont give him a chance to get away from it early. Without a jack, I cant believe he is going to pay off a turn raise. However, if he has a small pocket pair, he might bet the turn for you, and then check call the river. If you feel very strongly about your hand, and are sure he doesnt have it, raise him on the river, thats the only street you can even think about raising.

[Al_Capone_Junior]

few free cards scare me here, but if he has any outs at all, i don't wanna give him a freebie. if he has 0 outs, i'd also like him to pay to draw dead! with guys like this i want more than 2-2.5 bb out of them, thus i would play more aggressively.

al

[SinCityGuy]

First, thanks for all of the replies. There was a good deal of insightful commentary and suggestions on how to play out the hand. As I mentioned in several posts, my first inclination was to go to war on the turn, but I changed my mind.

Turn: 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif

He bet, I called.

River: 5/images/graemlins/heart.gif

He checked, I bet, he called. He mucked after I showed my hand, so my guess is that he had a medium to low pocket pair.

If he had bet, I wish that I could truthfully say that I would have raised, but I would have wimped out and just called. Clarkmeister and a few others pointed out the value of raising the river, and I now see the logic behind that thinking.