A8s in the BB.

[Bob T.]

Online 5-10 game.

Aggressive player opens in MP, Incredible calling station boy, calls in the CO( you can't win if you don't see the flop), I call in the BB with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif.

Flop A /images/graemlins/diamond.gifK /images/graemlins/spade.gif7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

What is your plan here?

Ok, I check MP bets, CO calls, and I call.

Turn, 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif

I check, MP bets, CO folds, and I call.

River J /images/graemlins/spade.gif

What's your play on the river?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[thirddan]

i would c/r this flop, you are likely ahead of an aggressive player that opens in MP...

If you bet and he raises you might lose the calling station, but if you c/r you will either trap him for 2 bets or get him to fold and leave some dead money in the pot...

on the river i would check/call, the pot is decent sized and you are getting about 8-1 on your call beat or chop with many hands that MP would play this way...

Edit: did you make a flush? there are two 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif in the original post...if you did make a flush i think i would try for a c/r...

[elindauer]

hi bob,

I ram and jam this river. If I lose, I can always complain to the floor that the deck has two 7 /images/graemlins/club.gif.

/images/graemlins/smile.gif,
Eric

[Bob T.]

I hate when I do that.

The turn card was the 4 of diamonds.

Sorry,
Bob T.

[sfer]

Hey Bob. Do you mean MP opened for a raise preflop or did he just limp? If he's aggressive enough to bet the river with a pair smaller than Aces of Kings I check/call. If not, I bet.

[ddubois]

sfer, I assume open-raised, as the BB "called", not checked.

thirddan, when you say Bob is likely ahead, by what thought process do you conclude that? How wide of a range of hands do you put MP on? Anything group 1-4?

-6 AA
-6 KK
+6 QQ
-6 JJ
-4 AKs

+6 TT
-4 AQs
-4 AJs
+4 KQs
-12 AKo

+6 99
+4 JTs
+4 QJs
-4 KJs
-4 ATs
-12 AQo

+4 T9s
+12 KQo
+6 88
-6 QTs
+4 98s
+4 J9s
-12 AJo
+4 KTs

Summing up, that's -16 (of 144), putting Bob behind 56% of the time, assuming the opponent raises with any and every group 4 hand. And I think the guy is more likely to raise with some group 5 hands, like 77 or KJo than some of those group 4 hands like T9s or 98s, but what do I know.

Bob, your line thus far looks like your strategy is to check/call with the top pair and lose the least when you are behind. Why would your plan change?

[sthief09]

I check-call. AQ/AJ will bet or call a bet, so that's a wash. AK/AA/KK will raise you if you bet and bet if you check. if you bet and he has QQ, JJ, TT will he fold? that is tough to say, but I think he might. if you check and he checks, you get 0. if you bet and they fold, you get 0, so it's a wash. if you bet and he calls, you get +1. if you check it's safe to say he won't bet.

so there are 6 QQ/JJ/TT, for a total of 18
there are 6 AK, 1 AA, 3 KK, for a total of 10

so if you think he'll fold QQ-TT if you bet, you should check. if you think he'll call QQ-TT you should bet. if you think it could go either way, 50/50, then you have to check.

I forgot KQ. KQ would call a bet and check, so that's +1 for either 3 or 12 combinations (depending on whether he raises PF with KQ or just KQs).

[Bob T.]

Well, I checkcalled a bet on the river, and my opponent had KJ suited for a rivered two pair.

The reason I posted this hand, was that I was wondering if this would have been the right time for a check/call, check/call, bet the river, with top pair/crappy kicker. No one suggested that line, but it seems that that has been a line that people expect when someone holds this type of hand. Any other comments?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[tripdad]

I NEVER CHECK/CALL, CHECK/CALL BET THE RIVER. I DO CHECK/CALL, BET THE TURN, BUT ONLY AS A BLUFF. IT JUST CONFUSES PEOPLE, AND WHEN THEY ARE CONFUSED, THEY WILL LAY DOWN A BETTER HAND ENOUGH TO MAKE IT WORK.

FOR THIS HAND, I LIKE CHECK/RAISING THE TURN OR FLOP. EITHER WAY, CALLING IS NO GOOD.

CHEERS!

[Your Mom]

C/r the flop. Bet it the rest of the way.

[sfer]

What does checkraising accomplish on the flop?

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
I NEVER CHECK/CALL, CHECK/CALL BET THE RIVER.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not?

[The Bear]

sthief,

This range of hands is WAY too narrow for an aggressive opener in MP.

I would bet the river and expect to get a crying call from a medium pocket pair or QJ or KTs or whatever. There are a lot of hands that he will call with that he won't bet. Also, you're unlikely to get raised unless he has a big one (many players wouldn't raise AK there, although I imagine this aggressive player might).

[MarkD]

Well, I'm not sure if this is at all the best approach but your count is WAY off.

You have an ace in your hand and there is an ace on the board so there is only 1 AA combo left. That's just one of many mistakes in your list.

[Joe Tall]

The reason I posted this hand, was that I was wondering if this would have been the right time for a check/call, check/call, bet the river, with top pair/crappy kicker.

That's the line.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[MarkD]

Yah. Check / call, check / call, bet the river is perfect in many situations to extract the most / lose the least. To out right disregard it as an option is bad advice.

In fact, as I was reading through the hand this was the exact line I thought Bob was thinking about and was going to take.

If Bob bets the flop agressive MP might raise and knock out the "call any two" player and why do you want that? If bob check raises the flop or turn and is behind he loses the most possible. There are very few hands that his opponent could have that would raise Bob on the river on this board especially considering that the opponent is agressive and opened from MP. His range of hands is quite a bit larger than what people are giving him credit for.

This all assumes that Bob folds to a river raise, which I think is critical in the check/call, check/call, bet line (unless you have a really good read).

[Bob T.]

Also, you're unlikely to get raised unless he has a big one (many players wouldn't raise AK there, although I imagine this aggressive player might).

This is also kind of related, I've found that this check/call, check/call, bet pattern is the way a lot of players play top pair/crappy kicker against an aggressive player (i.e. me), and that there really is a lot to be gained by making a value raise if you can beat that hand. I mean really, you know I am likely to bet the river, if you can beat me, why aren't you checkraising?

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[MarkD]

I think this is way off.

This line makes you the least and loses you the most IMO.

[MarkD]

To make the raise your opponent would have to be good as well as agressive, not to mention that he would have to be attentive.

Most players won't raise you on the river and any hand that can raise you on the river is a hand you can safely fold againt IMO (unless you know him well or he's ultra-tilt).

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, I'm not sure if this is at all the best approach but your count is WAY off.

You have an ace in your hand and there is an ace on the board so there is only 1 AA combo left. That's just one of many mistakes in your list.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point, but this is a 2-minute back-of-the-napkin calculation. It's a bit of a semantic argument to say it was a mistake, as I had never had any intention of going back and retroactively re-calculating the likelihood of his various holdings based on subsequent known information. If you wish to do so, feel free.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
This is also kind of related, I've found that this check/call, check/call, bet pattern is the way a lot of players play top pair/crappy kicker against an aggressive player (i.e. me), and that there really is a lot to be gained by making a value raise if you can beat that hand. I mean really, you know I am likely to bet the river, if you can beat me, why aren't you checkraising?


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. This topic has been discussed often on the Mid-High Stakes forum. Good players shouldn't and won't be frozen by these bets out of nowhere. But most players are.

[Luke]

Bob,

Check-call, check-call, bet the river makes sense here. That river bet will freeze up a lot of hands that you're behind to but you'll still get calls from just about anything this guy's got. He'll most likely only raise on a bluff or a really big hand (AK, KK, JJ, etc).

Good post.

Luke