AKo UTG+1

[easypete]

Hand Converter is down, so I will try to clean this up a little.

Party 1/2 10 Handed.

Dealt to hero A /images/graemlins/spade.gif K /images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG calls, hero raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls,CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls

Flop (14SB) Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif, 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif, T /images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue"> (7 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, BB calls, UTG calls

<font color="purple">Too aggressive w/ this many callers? Overcards. backdoor nut flush draw and gutshot.</font>

Turn: (10 BB) J /images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(6 Players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, hero bets, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

<font color="purple">BINGO! </font>

River: (15 BB) 6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif
BB checks, UTG checks, hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks

<font color="purple">Someone had to have flush. Good check here? Should I have bet?</font>

Pot (15 BB) between BB, UTG, hero, MP1 and MP2.

Summary in white
<font color="white">
UTG lost $5 [ 5d Qd ] [ a pair of queens -- Qd,Qs,Jh,Td,6s ]
hero lost $5 [ As Kh ] [ a straight, ten to ace]
MP1 lost $5 [ Kd 9d ] [ a straight, nine to king]
MP2 lost $5 [ 8d Ad ] [ high card ace ]
BB bet $5, collected $29.50 [ 8s 2s ] [ a flush, queen high]
</font>

[sublime]

Well played.

BB played that awful

[sfer]

Bet the river.

[Sam T.]

Flush possibility or not, I'd bet the river. (And now that I've looked at the results, I'd have lost more money.)

[ZootMurph]

I'd have bet the river only because I had the A /images/graemlins/spade.gif. Otherwise, I'd check as well.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Flush possibility or not, I'd bet the river. (And now that I've looked at the results, I'd have lost more money.)


[/ QUOTE ]

Would your answer be the same if BB had raised the flop like he should have?

[Raiser]

You don't like to see that card, but you have to bet the river.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't like to see that card, but you have to bet the river

[/ QUOTE ]

I must be weak/tight on the river. I get nervous with 3 flush on the board. Well with this many players anyways.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
I get nervous with 3 flushes on the board. Well with this many players anyways.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get nervous too, especially with that many callers, but the board has more to offer than a flush. People could be sticking with mid pair. Obviously, there are straights out there, with hero having the nut.

I think this is a progression that a lot of us go through. Learning to bet the river for value. I guess my guideline is:

Is my hand strong enought to bet if the 3 flush was not on the board? If so, I will generally bet. If there's a 4 flush on the board, then it's a different matter.

I'd like to see others comment on this matter. Especially if the above paragraph is poor thinking.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Is my hand strong enought to bet if the 3 flush was not on the board? If so, I will generally bet. If there's a 4 flush on the board, then it's a different matter.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well if BB had played this correctly, we wouldn't have this dillema. Then again he should have folded pre-flop.

I "think" there is a little better than 20% chance that somebody has the flush, now how we compute the +EV of a river bet is beyond my rudimentary math/poker skills.

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Flush possibility or not, I'd bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

With 6 others seeing flop and only 1 dropping to my flop bet... I think someone has 2 spades.

I understand (for the most part) value betting the river here, but with that many seeing the flop it's got to cross the border into -EV, doesn't it? What is the boundary here? If there were only 3 others seeing the flop, or the spades hit runner runner w/ 6 others on the flop, I would definately bet the river.

The reason I posted this is to see how the number of players seeing the flop in a LPG effects decisions when scare cards hit on the turn or river.

Any comments?

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
With 6 others seeing flop and only 1 dropping to my flop bet... I think someone has 2 spades.

I understand (for the most part) value betting the river here, but with that many seeing the flop it's got to cross the border into -EV, doesn't it? What is the boundary here? If there were only 3 others seeing the flop, or the spades hit runner runner w/ 6 others on the flop, I would definately bet the river.

The reason I posted this is to see how the number of players seeing the flop in a LPG effects decisions when scare cards hit on the turn or river.

Any comments?

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with you, but I can see where others are coming from.

If BB raises the flop, then we can/should be worried about the flush draw. Since he didn't not betting the river is weak/tight play.

However, sometimes I dotn mind being weak/tight. It is better than being broke /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Maybe this is a question for the probablilty forum, I belive there is roughly a 20% chance that somebody hit the flush on the river, add that into the fact that somebody could have 2nd straight and this is probably +EV.

[LeftBack]

I have real problems with AKo. I think it's overrated. The A is usually counterfeit, leaving you with two pair if the K pairs, but otherwise, you're hoping for a single ended draw.

I think you started too fast. Overcards? Backdoor? Gutshot? You'd never bet on any of them alone. Together they don't add up to much, either.

Looks like you were the only one who wasn't afraid of the flush at the turn?

Admittedly, you caught the J, but there were too many callers to dismiss the flush.

This is why Poker Tracker hates AKo, AQo, AJo, ATo. I will usually fold preflop against a raise. If someone can show me how to win with these hands, that would be great, but for now, I'm going to listen to Poker Tracker.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Easy:

I am not a big fan of the flop bet. Yes you have 2 overcards and a gut shot and a backdoor flush and you definitely want to see the turn. But you have six opponents and a pretty coordinated flop. You will likely be called in several spots and it is likely you will be raised. In addition, I do not think you can be assured that your overcard and gut shot outs are clean.

Now if UTG had bet into you on the flop, I would consider raising /images/graemlins/tongue.gif .

I would bet the river.

-Rico

[Rico Suave]

Hey Leftback:

[ QUOTE ]
I have real problems with AKo. I think it's overrated

[/ QUOTE ]

It certainly is not AA, but it should be a money maker for you. If it is not, then either your sample size is too small or you are misplaying it.

Post some hands.

Welcome to the forum.

--Rico

[rigoletto]

[ QUOTE ]
I have real problems with AKo. I think it's overrated. The A is usually counterfeit, leaving you with two pair if the K pairs, but otherwise, you're hoping for a single ended draw.

I think you started too fast. Overcards? Backdoor? Gutshot? You'd never bet on any of them alone. Together they don't add up to much, either.

Looks like you were the only one who wasn't afraid of the flush at the turn?

Admittedly, you caught the J, but there were too many callers to dismiss the flush.

This is why Poker Tracker hates AKo, AQo, AJo, ATo. I will usually fold preflop against a raise. If someone can show me how to win with these hands, that would be great, but for now, I'm going to listen to Poker Tracker.



[/ QUOTE ]

Have it occured to you that your losses with these hands could be because of the way you play them and not because they are losing hands in general (which they are definately not)?

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Easy:

I am not a big fan of the flop bet. Yes you have 2 overcards and a gut shot and a backdoor flush and you definitely want to see the turn. But you have six opponents and a pretty coordinated flop. You will likely be called in several spots and it is likely you will be raised. In addition, I do not think you can be assured that your overcard and gut shot outs are clean.

Now if UTG had bet into you on the flop, I would consider raising

I would bet the river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I have real problems with AKo. I think it's overrated. The A is usually counterfeit, leaving you with two pair if the K pairs, but otherwise, you're hoping for a single ended draw.

I think you started too fast. Overcards? Backdoor? Gutshot? You'd never bet on any of them alone. Together they don't add up to much, either.

Looks like you were the only one who wasn't afraid of the flush at the turn?

Admittedly, you caught the J, but there were too many callers to dismiss the flush.

This is why Poker Tracker hates AKo, AQo, AJo, ATo. I will usually fold preflop against a raise. If someone can show me how to win with these hands, that would be great, but for now, I'm going to listen to Poker Tracker.



[/ QUOTE ]

Wow... 2 posters in a row that didn't like the bet on the flop. I raised in EP pf. I don't want to give up on this hand, but I also want information.

I may have stated this wrong, or have been misunderstood. I did NOT bet my draws. I bet to continue with aggressive play (the new me). If I was raised, I would have known I was beat or up against a good hand and I would have called the flop (and possibly fold against a turn bet if I didn't catch anything).

What would happen if I just checked on the flop? Someone downstream would have bet. How do I get more information? Raise? What about the players that see weekness and will raise the bettor on the flop just to get me out when they have nothing after seeing my check?

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't think checking the flop is an option here. Too much can go wrong.

As for my Pokertracker stats, I am making good money w/ AKo, AQo, AJo, and ATo (&gt;1.5BB/100 Hands). Maybe because I do bet the flop in these situations.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Pete:

[ QUOTE ]
I raised in EP pf. I don't want to give up on this hand

[/ QUOTE ]

A couple of things. Just because you raised preflop, does not mean that you have to continue aggression. Also, I never said anything about giving up on this hand, I in fact said you definitely want to continue.

[ QUOTE ]
but I also want information

[/ QUOTE ]
So if you bet and 4 people call, what info do you have? Are you ahead, are you behind, are they on a draw, does someone have a Q.
So if you bet and are raised, by the button and 2 people call, then where do you stand. Was he raising a Q, a flush draw a straight draw?
I guess my point here is that I am not sure you are getting much useful information here. Bottom line, you are going to have to hit on the turn to continue. So I think you should see the turn for free or 1 sb, rather than 2sb.

[ QUOTE ]
What would happen if I just checked on the flop? Someone downstream would have bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

You would call and hope to hit your hand on the turn. Then worry about betting and raising.

I just think you need to consider all factors--the coordination of the flop, number of people in the pot, and the strength of your hand/draw. Just betting the flop b/c you raised preflop is going to cost you $.


[ QUOTE ]
As for my Pokertracker stats, I am making good money w/ AKo, AQo, AJo, and ATo (&gt;1.5BB/100 Hands).

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought PT calculated individual hand results by bb/hand. And if you are making 1.5 bb per hand with AKo and AQo, then you are playing them much better than I am. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

--Rico

[easypete]

Rico -

I see your points on the flop bet.

I guess I've played too many 6-max games. If you raised pf, and you check the flop, you will be facing a bet (Period). In that case, what information did you learn by calling a flop bet (which will happen 99% of the time -- and you have to fear the checks when they happen). If you bet the flop and they call (if they call), you're usually up against weak hands. If you bet and are raised, you are up against a good hand. If you make your hand on the turn, you can be confident of a bet so a c/r is in order. If you miss on the turn, you saved 1 SB. That's the information I'm looking for here.

Your right about the BB/hand... I'm so use to typing BB/100 hands, it's alomst automatic here. Again, the high win rate is mainly due to playing mostly 6-max... I just switched back to full tables this last week.

-EP