To Ericd

[John Cole]

Eric,

I read and enjoyed your posts on the Other Topics forum. All are welcome there--even me, it seems.

All of us should be a little more careful about what we say because words used improperly can have devastating effects. I have said things in my life that I know can never be taken back or apologized for. They haunt me to this day. I do not want to give specific details, but because of what I have said in the past, I know I am diminished as a human being. I know this for a fact about myself. For the rest of my life, I will live with the knowledge that a few words unspoken may have made me a better person.

John

[ericd]

John,

Thank you very much for the kind words. I need to catch my breath for the moment. However, knowing myself as I do, I assume I will find a topic that needs the input of my "expert" opinion.

Eric

[ericd]

John,

I was in a rush before but I wanted to make sure I thanked you. Fortunately, I now have a couple of minutes to speak to the other point you brought up.

I too have said and done things in the past that I wish I could change. Oh, to turn back the clock. There will always be a part inside of me that rues those moments.

One of the saddest things of this whole episode is that at least one of the posters will look back to May 2004 with regret. I hope for their sake it is from their overall growth as a human being and not a serious personal setback.

Eric

[rigoletto]

All of us should be a little more careful about what we say because words used improperly can have devastating effects.

I think you are way off here. What Eric tried in his 'retard' post was to in fact control language and conform it to his ideas. Which (in principle) can be more devastating than 'improper' use of words.

Eric's statement did nothing other than label everybody who uses the term in casual conversation as insensitive and when they react he can just point to this label. It's an old an well used tactic, just consider how noone is pro- or anti-abortion anymore.

We use all sorts of analogies and imagery in our language and I'm hard pressed to find a more direct and easily understod way of telling somebody that they made a dumb move than comparing them to somebody with diminished mental capacity. What I fail to see is how this reflects badly on retarded people! When I was a schoolboy it was a bad thing to be called a girl, but I don't think any of the girls ever took offense or even considered the possibility that this had anything to do with them.

[ericd]

I'm sorry that I don't follow your logic.

All I was trying to point out was that using the word retarded in the manner it is used here offends many people. I was doing nothing other than that.

I was hoping that by letting people know that some words, retarded in this case, can offend some people when used in a particular context, then they might be more careful in choosing them. I can do nothing about those who ignore such a request other than disassociate myself from them.

[nicky g]

Calling someone a retard isn't simply a comparison, it's a deliberate insult. It's not the same as calling someone a girl because if you called a girl a girl, she wouldn't be generally be offended, although it does still imply that there's something wrong with being a girl, and little boys usually do think there's something wrong with girls. If you called someone with learning difficulties a retard, they most certainly would be offended. It's a derogatory term for such people that has been transferred to also insult people who don't have learning difficulties.

"What I fail to see is how this reflects badly on retarded people! "

Because you are using them as the standard for a clear insult. Imagine if I came on this forum and made a racist remark and someone called me a retard. What they're suggesting is that "retards" ie people with learning difficulties act in a similiar way to the way the person coming in for criticism has acted, when usually that isn't fair. What you're saying is; "Hey you guys, this guy I think is a real moron, a dumbass, a scumbag - you're just like him!" Those people have real problems that are not comparable to someone making a dumb move in a card game, or saying something offensive, or anything else somone who should know better might get called a "retard" for.

Noone's forcing people not to use it and no doubt many will continue to use it. Nevertheless it's Eric's right to point out that he finds it offensive and ask that people reconsider. I would ask the same. If he had have asked the forum to ban it that would be another matter, although given that they already ban both swear words and other derogatory epithets I don't really see why they should not also ban retard (though i don't actually think they should ban any term).

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
One of the saddest things of this whole episode is that at least one of the posters will look back to May 2004 with regret.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which one?

[rigoletto]

Calling someone a retard isn't simply a comparison, it's a deliberate insult. It's not the same as calling someone a girl because if you called a girl a girl, she wouldn't be generally be offended, although it does still imply that there's something wrong with being a girl

So now I can't even call a retard 'a retard'!

"What I fail to see is how this reflects badly on retarded people! " Because you are using them as the standard for a clear insult.

Just as the term girl can be used as an insult. What if I had a retarded brother and told somebody that he's a retard, would that be insulting my brother?

This is how we use language every day and most people understand from the context what we mean. My point was that when people try policing the language it's of an attempt to own the definition and use it to win arguments/power/rightfullness etc. This is what Bush has done with the war against terror: if you are not with us you are supporting the terrorists. And sometimes policing ends with undessired effects: I don't think insistence of the term 'african american' has don't much but alianate the black population for some people.

P.S. I know Eric's post was well intended and I'm just trying to explain why there was such a heavy response to it.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]

I was hoping that by letting people know that some words, retarded in this case, can offend some people when used in a particular context, then they might be more careful in choosing them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eric,

This is the key to the whole thing: the context and the way the word is used.

I agree with John's sentiments regarding things I too have said which I can never take back. However that is not due to just one word I used; it is due to the spirit and manner in which I said or did something. So for you to ask people to not use the word in a hurtful manner is fine. Just be aware that not all uses of certain words are always hurtful.

Personally, I never use the word "retarded" in a derogatory manner, as I much prefer using "idiotic" or "moronic" when describing some idea that is patently absurd. Even then, that's a bit of a rarity, except perhaps when discussing lofty thoughts with ACPlayer.

[ericd]

I don't know.

I was trying to say that in all likelihood, strictly from a statistical point of view, someone who made a "wise" remark will have something go drastically wrong with life. It could even be a seriously handicapped child. In many cases (most?) people, at such times, do a lot of relection on their lives. I think they may feel ashamed of some of their "cute" comments they made in the past couple of days.

[ericd]

Context is tricky. It might work if everyone had a perfect grasp of the language. I don't.

I find it hard to understand why there is so much resistance to using word B instead of word A when word A may offend someone. Even if the one being offended is being somewhat oversenstive why not exceed to their wishes.

[rigoletto]

why not exceed to their wishes

Everything can be potentially offending. It's a sliding slope. What to do when the truth is offending?

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I find it hard to understand why there is so much resistance to using word B instead of word A when word A may offend someone.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all in the presentation, eric. You came off like a sanctimonious jackass, and people responded accordingly. You said:

Please stop using "Retarded" - Spend a day helping out at Special Olympics instead.

Had you instead said something like:

Something to think about - Isn't it strange that a lot of intelligent people find terms like nigger, Jew, and camel jockey to be very offensive and derogatory terms regarding certain groups that they would never use in their speech or writing, yet the word retard is similarly offensive to another group (and those who care about them) but those same intelligent people are far more likely to use the word retard as a generic insult?

the responses would have been quite different, I'm sure.

FWIW, my personal view on this subject is that I try to put little stock in what words people use and do my best to understand their intent. I've worked with people who have been super-friendly to black people to their face, but once they are gone, they are happy to talk about what stupid niggers they are. On the other hand, I've also known people who refer to black people as a whole as colored people yet have close and meaningful friendships with a number of black, African-American, or whatever you want to call them, people. What's worse, really? A boss who refers to people as blacks and promotes them on their merits? Or a boss who calls people African-Americans but would do anything possible to not hire an African-American into management? Here in SF there's plenty of joking around about fags/homos. I've been known to make a gay joke or two, most of all when hanging out with close gay friends of mine. On the other hand, I know of people who would be repulsed by the very idea of making a gay joke or calling someone a "homo" yet would also be just as repulsed to have a gay friend.

So much of the way people speak and the words they use has to do with environment and upbringing. Just as it's easy to judge people and be prejudiced against them because of their skin color, religion, etc., it's also very easy to judge people by the words they happen to use. I think it would be better for everyone if more people ignored or looked past the words and tried hard to focus on people's true intentions/feelings.

[MMMMMM]

[ QUOTE ]
Everything can be potentially offending. It's a sliding slope. What to do when the truth is offending?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very good point, Rigoletto.

[MMMMMM]

Personally speaking, not offending people I meet seems to come naturally to me and I don't have any problems in this regard. I generally don't use words people might find offensive when conversing, even at the poker table, but that's not because I make any special effort.

I do think there is much to be said for being sensitive to others. On the flip side of things, life itself will offend you even if nobody else does, so everyone has to get used to being offended. Speech codes are an abomination, and a slap in the face to our civil rights. So yes, people should be nice, but no, they shouldn't be forced to be nice. That's my take on the whole thing.

[ericd]

You are absolutely correct. If I had any idea that my presentation style would cause such a fiasco I would have done it differently. Really, I expected no replies (was I ever wrong).

I agree with the spirit of what you say. However, based upon the firestorm I've witnessed here, I question the implementation. I also have seen the smile in your face as the knife is being twisted in the back too often to believe it was merely by chance.

I don't know the answer to all of this. This is growing into areas that I am completely unqualified. However, I do appreciate the thought and care you gave to all of this.

Eric

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Really, I expected no replies (was I ever wrong).

[/ QUOTE ]

Live and learn. Tell a group of smart, opinionated people what to do w/ a holier-than-thou attitude and you'll get a response.

[Myrtle]

[ QUOTE ]

What if I had a retarded brother and told somebody that he's a retard, would that be insulting my brother?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you not say instead?..."My brother is retarded"

There is a contextual difference between the two statements, is there not?

By the way, yes, I think you are insulting your brother with YOUR statemt.

[Michael Davis]

Do you sell indulgences?

-Michael

[nicky g]

"So now I can't even call a retard 'a retard'!"

Maybe things are different where you come from. But to my sensibility, this is like saying "now I can't even call a n*gger a n*gger!" Retard is a highly abusive slang term where I come from, not a neutral descrip[tion of a condition.

[rigoletto]

Well, I'm a none native english speaker, so I might be of on the present meaning of the word. Never the less if what you say is correct:

Retard is a highly abusive slang term where I come from, not a neutral descrip[tion of a condition.

Then 'retard' can only be used as slang and doesn't refer to mentally handicapped anymore and thus will not be an insult to them. This is similar to the developement of the word idiot which was originally reserved for people with diminished capacity but is now only used casually about people whom we think is doing something stupid or people we dislike: do you feel that you insult the real idiots of the world byt calling somebody an idiot?

[nicky g]

Retard is still used in both senses: as an insulting description of people with learning difficulties and as an insult for people who screw something up. Idiot, if it did once have such a meaning, doesn;t any more. Even if it did I would not refer to a mentally handicapped person as an "idiot." Having developmental disabilities is not the equivalent to being or doing something stupid, and more than having a physical disability is equivalent to being clumsy or inept. So-called "retards" are not simply people with low IQs.