Playing way too tight (10% VP$IP) !!

[alekhine8]

First, the stats (Party $0.50/$1.00):

Hands played: 2,700
Win rate per 100 hands: $2.59

VP$IP: 10.44%
PFR: 6.00%
W$SD: 52.94%
Aggression: 2.61 and 2.01 (including/excluding pre-flop)

I really feel I should be winning more at this level. I am typically playing four tables at a time and only noting other players that make complete fools of themselves.

I compare how many hands I am playing to others and think I'm leaving money on the table by only voluntarily entering the pot 10% of the time. I think I have two main questions:

1) How much respect do you give raises in these weak passive games? I find myself tossing AJo, KQo as well as small/medium pairs to raises. I will add that AQo and AJo are my two biggest losing hands - I definitely need to evalulate how I am playing those in all positions.

Examples [all at 10-player $0.50 / $1.00]:
... You are on the button with 77. UTG limps, EP limps, MP raises.
... You are in the small blind with AJo. EP raises, LP calls two.
... You are UTG+2 with 88. UTG limps and UTG+1 raises.
(I think I fold all three - am I the only one?)

2) Just how 'low will you go' when it comes to limping in MP/LP, especially after previously limper(s)? I will limp in LP with obvious stuff (pairs, suited connectors) when I can, but maybe I am not doing it enough.

I feel I play well enough post-flop given the competition, but I don't want to lower myself to it by playing trash. One-gappers or two-gappers (suited, of course)? Axs? Kxs? Any two face cards?

Just looking to improve my game. I am really starting to focus on limit after playing SNGs/NL and am looking forward to working my way up to $1/$2 soon. Thanks.

If anyone is interested in looking at any HH for analysis or whatever, let me know. I would post but I am thinking more of the hands I'm folding than those I'm playing at this stage.

[Robk]

I'm always willing to look at a few hundred hands. If youre interested send me a PM and I'll give you my email.

[tech]

Two comments on your sample hands:

Yes, you probably should fold these, but you need better notes on the players to know for sure. Take note of what they raise with.

Most importantly -- if you are only seeing 3 people in the pot at a 10-handed Party .5/1 game, find another table as fast as you can. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[rivered]

I don't think 2700 is really that many hands. For example, I have 12k hands at this level and 74s is winning 0.29 BB/hand right now. You can have a lot of bad beats over a short period of hands and win a few huge hands that distort things. Take a look at the hands for AJ and reply them all (assuming you're using poker tracker). It seems to be you're playing extremely tight and need to loosen up. In these games, I find almost any pocket pair is great if you get in cheap, even early. But, playing higher games some of those habits can bite you in the ass against more aggressive and tighter oponents. One weird thing I've noticed (and maybe it's just me) but so many people play any 2 cards suited that I find 78s and 56s are really easy to make lower flushes with and this has happened to me a number of times. I'm curious if these cards are devalued because so many people play J2s or is it just me?

[MicroBob]

"I feel I play well enough post-flop given the competition, but I don't want to lower myself to it by playing trash. One-gappers or two-gappers (suited, of course)? Axs? Kxs? Any two face cards?"


does this quote mean that you are not currently playing Axs?? you should be.
from LP with an appropriate number of limpers (or cold-callers)....from EP if you think there's a good chance you will get enough callers (4 or 5).
i play Axs UTG on the 2/4 tables and wouldn't hesitate with it at .5/1. i'm much tighter with Kxs but it sees its fair share of flops also.

the suited connectors need to be played at the right time as well.

with AJo and KQo in your above described scenario, you can either muck them OR re-raise to isolate if you have a read on that player.
just muck if you want to stay conservative. with AJs and KQs i might re-raise with these unless i am up against one of the super-rocks (i recognize many of the names now...probably a lot of you guys from 2+2).


in your sample hands - you can consider cold-calling with 77 if you like...since it is decently likely that you can get 5-way action or more. you're just looking to flop a set here. this is up to you however and i know there are many players around here who toss this.
i would be more inclined to play it....especially considering my position.

2nd hand - i probably muck AJo here...but have been known to play it in such situation where 2 idiots are playing a lot of pots with garbage. but if i did play it in this situation it would still be pretty gutsy and possibly too loose even against the maniacs, so mucking is just fine right here.

-- 3rd hand....another one that is somewhat debateable...but i probably cold-call here with 88 and hope to get 1 or 2 more players to come along for the ride as i try to hit my set.
and, once again, i'm probably looser than most of the players around here on that one.

all of the above are assuming a 10-player table....the 88 becomes more muck-able imo if there are only 6 or 7 players at the table because the chances of getting more players in the pot is decreased.


by the way gang, i'm not as ultra-loose as you might think based on my above responses....my VPIP is 18 and my PFR is 8.


your VPIP of 10 is pretty squeaky tight...but you're winning and that's the important part...

and i would submit that it's better to be too tight and to try to figure out if you want to add a hand or two then it is to be too loose (and probably losing $$) and try to figure out what hands you should be cutting back.


your PFR is pretty good i think and that may be more important.


i suspect that there are more random raises and cold-calls and even caps PF at .50/1 making it tougher to jump in with the marginal hands.


my other suggestion is to scale down to 2 or 3 tables and focus a little bit more on player-reads. all you really need to do is see 1 or 2 hands they take to SD to make an early determination.
the fact that you can check the hands that didn't get flashed at SD is extremely valuable....and obviously is much easier to do when you only have 2 or 3 tables going.
the whole 'what on earth was that guy calling me all the way down with' aspect. there's some real garbage out there.

since you're not out to make a lot of money with this i would think that you would learn a lot by putting yourself in a position where you could focus on the tables a bit more.

in the very least, you could start your session off with 1 or 2 tables and learn the players a little bit for an orbit or 2 before adding the 3rd and 4th tables.
just some thoughts. good luck.

[StellarWind]

10% VP$IP is very low and 2700 hands is more than adequate evidence.

Do not start coldcalling or reraising an EP player with dominated hands like KQo, AQo, or AJo. Only a specific read on the raiser can justify playing this sort of hand.

Do not make drastic changes all at once while playing four tables. You may not be able to handle the extra activity you generate. Loosen up slowly.

Do start looking for excuses to play pocket pairs more often. I would coldcall your 77 example against most players unless I strongly feared someone would reraise. Pocket pairs are much more flexible than other "drawing hands" because they often win unimproved in short-handed pots. I'm still experimenting with pocket pairs but so far I have not reached the limit of what I can do. Just remember that position matters and that even 44 is appreciably better than 22.

Play Axs for one bet either LP or with a couple of limpers already in. Kxs is much weaker. Only play it LP with lots of limpers. Again, the size of the x does matter quite a bit.

Play all suited "blackjack" hands for one bet in all positions at all normal tables. That's any two cards whose blackjack value adds up to 20 or 21.

Be *really* careful with junky offsuit blackjack hands.