Pretty straight forward hand..I thought $4-$8 @ Trop w/SThief09

[Mike Gallo]

I played this hand earlier this evening with poster SThief09 to my direct left. We sat in a typical $4-$8 game at the Trop.

Five callers to me in the sb and I complete. SThief09 checks his option.

Flop comes J /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I bet everyone folds to the player in the cutoff who calls. The next player on the button raises. I call the cutoff folds.

Turn 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

I check the button bets I raise he calls.

I bet the river dark.

River 3* 10 /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/spade.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif 10 /images/graemlins/spade.gif

My opponent hesitates and says " I can't let you steal this pot" and calls.

Who won? What did we both have?

Thoughts and descriptions to follow.

[blackaces13]

My hand reading is terrible, but I'm gonna guess the button had something like AK which a lot of people can simply NEVER fold and you had a J. You may even have had JT and the 2nd board T sucked but didn't matter.

See, told you my heand reading is terrible. I think reading hands is the part of the game that takes the longest to get decent at.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey MG,

You had a full house and your opponent had a busted nut flush draw. Whatev. Now post an interesting hand from your session. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

GoT

[lunchmeat]

Here are my deductions. They're rather long, but I'd much rather share the full thought process involved with reading a hand than just state my guess. For those who champion brevity, I think Mike most likely held Jxs, and the opponent held AsXs.

I'll start with your hand.

Pre-flop: You could limp with almost anything here, so the call doesn't signify all that much.

Flop: Since you're likely to play a solid, straightforward game at this table, your bet narrows down your hand somewhat. The most likely candidates you have at this point are A) 2 spades B)Jxs C) a straight-flush draw of KsQs, Qs9s, or 9s8s, or D) KQ. I also won't rule out E) straight draws Q9 and 87, but they're less likely because I don't think you'd value bet a 6 outer into a large field with a board like that. The other possibility is F) JJ & TT (with TT being far more likely). With TT I'd rather call pre-flop than raise, and plan to check/raise the flop to limit the field. Most would raise TT pre-flop here, but if you call like me, then a flop bet would make sense as you're likely to get a lot of callers.

Turn: The turn check/raise wipes out A, C, D, and E. You're not going to put a move on the typical 4/8 calling station with a semi-bluff. Especially a semi-bluff that is likely to be no good even if you hit it. This leaves two possibilities. The first is Jxs, because now you can raise it without concern about your kicker. The second is TT, because a reraise on the flop with a full house would have driven out the CO for sure. Now that it's heads up you want to pop him on the turn.

River: The river doesn't say much about your hand.

My guess: Jxs... with reservations. The problem with saying you have Jxs is that you know that even a semi-decent player will not call you with a worse hand when you check/raise the turn. Only a player who is bad by 4/8 standards will pay off with anything much worse than tens full. I think a better play here with Jxs is to call the turn, and then either bet or check/raise the river. With TT on the other hand, you definitely want to check/raise the turn, because your opponent will jam if he has a jack and you'll really soak him with your quad tens. The problem with TT is that I am the only pro player I know who won't raise TT pre-flop from the sb with 5+ callers. Most would rather just get their money in with the best of it rather than try to narrow the field on the flop.

His hand (I'll be quicker here):

The flop raise could signify a lot of hands, but some of those can be eliminated on later streets. A bluff with a medium pair was not out of the question on the flop, but the turn devours those hands, so he's unlikely to stay with 99-55 after that. He is unlikely to hold a jack because of his comment on the river. This leaves tens full, and AsXs. The comment seems more consistent with AsXs, as I think the typical 4/8 b&m player would think tens full might be best, whereas AsXs can only beat a total bluff.

[Mike Gallo]

When I bet the river dark, I expected my opponent to call me only if he had a Jack. This player played very badly and I did not want him to leave. I bet dark to let him know I had him beat. He must have interpreted this as a move and he called.

I showed J /images/graemlins/heart.gif 7 /images/graemlins/heart.gif and took it down. He did not show.

SThief09 and I discussed the hand away from the table. He and I agreed that basically my bet should have told the button that I had a Jack, without telling him I had a Jack. Yet he still felt compelled to call me. I guess it has to do with my image /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Now post an interesting hand from your session.

I really didnt have any. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

[Mike Gallo]

With TT I'd rather call pre-flop than raise, and plan to check/raise the flop to limit the field. Most would raise TT pre-flop here, but if you call like me, then a flop bet would make sense as you're likely to get a lot of callers.

I would raise 10 10 from the sb.

My guess: Jxs... with reservations. The problem with saying you have Jxs is that you know that even a semi-decent player will not call you with a worse hand when you check/raise the turn.

Good conclusion. I did have Jxs. You may change your opinion about the regular player after you read the results.

[Mike Gallo]

My hand reading is terrible, but I'm gonna guess the button had something like AK which a lot of people can simply NEVER fold and you had a J.

Not that terrible. You put me on the correct hand. My opponent did not show.

[sfer]

There's a type of player who gets spiteful after being into in the dark. Others run for the hills.

The real question is why were you at the Trop?

[Joe Tall]

Nothing like inducing a call with a river dark bet.

Nice hand,
Joe Tall

[sthief09]

There's a type of player who gets spiteful after being into in the dark. Others run for the hills.

he did it nicely. he didn't do it forcefully. he called a bet on the flop, check-raised the turn, then gently put the chips in front and gave the guy a smile, telling him to fold. he was also talking to the guy a bit and was being friendly to him before the hand. there was no reason to think he was trying to take the pot away.


The real question is why were you at the Trop?

because I'm too young to go anywhere else /images/graemlins/frown.gif and at the Trop, not only did no one even look at me strangely, I went up to the bar toward the end of my session and got a margerita with no problem. I don't even look old.

[Mike Gallo]

The real question is why were you at the Trop?

Your about the third person that asked me that. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Sthief09 (Josh) has not yet turned the legal age to gamble. The Trop allows anyone with a pulse to play there.

I offered to attempt to sneak Josh into the Borgata for his next trip.

[Mike Gallo]

he did it nicely. he didn't do it forcefully. he called a bet on the flop, check-raised the turn, then gently put the chips in front and gave the guy a smile, telling him to fold.

I didnt say "fold" however my body language should have made the player fold.

I don't even look old.

Nope you don't, and I had no problem picking you out.

[Mike Gallo]

Nothing like inducing a call with a river dark bet.

I did not expect him to call without a Jack.

I had an enjoyable time playing with this man. He had drank 2 or 3 drinks of Canadian Rye and water at this time.

You have played with me, so you know that I like to keep a table fun and playful. I think that image worked to my advantage here.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I didnt say "fold" however my body language should have made the player fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Seems to me that a turn checkraise and dark bet, irrespective of almost any body language, should induce a non-J/non-T to fold. I dunno, call me weak-tight. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Mike Gallo]

Seems to me that a turn checkraise and dark bet, irrespective of almost any body language, should induce a non-J/non-T to fold. I dunno, call me weak-tight.

I wouldnt call you weak tight, I could call you a thinking player. He thought I tried to buy it.

[Tosh]

I'm very disappointed Mike. I was expecting a great hand where you went up against Josh in a true battle of the titans. Instead, this! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I offered to attempt to sneak Josh into the Borgata for his next trip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have this image of you carrying a 20 year old in a burlap sack, over your shoulder, running down the Borgata escalator to the poker room. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Mike Gallo]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very disappointed Mike. I was expecting a great hand where you went up against Josh in a true battle of the titans. Instead, this! /images/graemlins/mad.gif

/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We played three handed for a bit. He destroyed me with 10 10 when I had 55 and a board of 3468Q.

Other then shorthanded we stayed out of each others way.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
I offered to attempt to sneak Josh into the Borgata for his next trip.

[/ QUOTE ]

I look as young as anyone and I've never been carded at the Borgata.

[DrPublo]

Agreed...I never got carded there before I was 21, although I couldn't get a player card.

A related funny story:

2 trips ago, an angry, drunk guy at the NL game starts harassing my friend (who's 19) after my friend took a huge pot off him with a set. He tells my friend that he _knows_ my friend is under 21 and wants his $200 back to keep quiet. My friend obviously refuses. So angry drunk man calls the floor over to complain! Floor asks my friend for ID, who replies that he doesn't have any on him...bad news, right? WRONG! Floor chuckles to himself and then walks away.

Proving yet again that all that is required in AC is a chip and a chair...and a pulse.

The Doc

[BeerMoney]

Mg,

What did you think button had?

Look Drunk, Play Drunk.

[arfsananto]

What is betting dark?

[sfer]

Betting before the card(s) for the next street are turned over.

[arfsananto]

Thanks. That's what it sounded like, but I didn't know you could do that. Never played B&M.

[sfer]

Sometimes it's great intimidation. For example once at the Borg it was folded to a weak-tight button who limps. Tight SB completes, I raise with A6o in the BB, button calls, SB folds. I bet the flop dark and he folds in the dark.

Sometimes it pisses 'em off enough to call. I don't think Mike was trying to induce a call but it seems to have worked. /images/graemlins/grin.gif