TT - 3 bet preflop?

[joker122]

Party 3/6 10 Handed

Hero is UTG+3 with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG folds, UTG+2 raises, Hero 3 bets, CO (poster) calls.
Rest fold.


Flop: J /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO calls, UTG+2 calls.


Turn: T /images/graemlins/club.gif
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, both call.


River: 5 /images/graemlins/heart.gif
UTG+2 checks, Hero bets, CO folds, UTG+2 calls

Results:
UTG+2 shows KK for 2 pair. Hero shows the nuts.


Chatbox:
UTG+2: RERAISED WITH POCKET TENS!! WHAT A LUCKY FOOL.
Hero: sorry, I can't see your cards.
UTG+2: SO WHAT?? IT'S STILL A STUPID PLAY.
Hero: I disagree

I'm right, right?

[asdf1234]

You are right.

[sfer]

The only thing you did wrong is responding to his inane chat. He didn't cap preflop with KK in a 3-way pot. I think we know who's making mistakes here.

[Huskiez]

I like your play on all streets.

[steveyz]

Good 3-bet. With TT here, you can't just call as you want this heads up. If UTG+2 is a tight raiser and will only raise AA/KK/QQ/JJ/AK?AQ/AJ here, then consider folding. But I've never respected anyone on Party 3/6 that much.

[BaronVonCP]

If you never talked poker strategy at the table, you might be doing just fine.

[kenewbie]

[ QUOTE ]

UTG+2: RERAISED WITH POCKET TENS!! WHAT A LUCKY FOOL.
Hero: sorry, I can't see your cards.
UTG+2: SO WHAT?? IT'S STILL A STUPID PLAY.
Hero: I disagree

I'm right, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. Attempting to cut down the field there is a good play. Its either raise or fold.

People who berate your play online usually dont know what they are talking about.

My favorite went something like this:
I have ATs in the BB, UTG raises, 3 people cold call and I call aswell.

Flop is 3c 7h Ts

UTG bets everyone calls.

Turn is Td

UTG bets, everyone before me calls I raise, UTG calls, the rest fold.

River is blank, checked to me I bet and UTG calls.

He has QQ and MHIG.

"BAH I HATE THIS. YOU FING CALLING STATION FISH FCK, GO LEARN HOW TO PLAY".

Neat /images/graemlins/smile.gif

k

[Ponks]

I think this shows another reason to 3-bet TT pre-flop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is CO with T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (10.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 5.25 BB, won by Hero.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 0.50 BB, overbet by Hero.</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
No showdown. Hero wins 5.75 BB. </font>

[asdf1234]

[ QUOTE ]
I have ATs in the BB, UTG raises, 3 people cold call and I call aswell.

Flop is 3c 7h Ts

[/ QUOTE ]

You should have bet the flop.

[kenewbie]

[ QUOTE ]
You should have bet the flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was my initial thought aswell, but then I started picturing UTG raising and everyone else folding. Do I really want that? I thought no but I might have been wrong.

k

[asdf1234]

[ QUOTE ]
That was my initial thought aswell, but then I started picturing UTG raising and everyone else folding. Do I really want that?

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be the primary reason for betting out instead of checkraising.

[kenewbie]

[ QUOTE ]
That would be the primary reason for betting out instead of checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes betting out here would limit the field. But my thoughtprocess went something like this:

I doubt I have the best hand. UTG could be raising other things than a pair ofcourse but there are 3 overcards he could have which all are scary for me. On the other hand all my outs are probably clean (assuming he doesnt have AA but I have no reason to put him on that) and will win the pot for me. So, and this is where I might be painfully wrong, I consider my hand a draw. And as such I want people in to give me odds.

Feel free to smack me around /images/graemlins/smile.gif

k

[Ulysses]

This chat should have gone:

UTG+2: RERAISED WITH POCKET TENS!! WHAT A LUCKY FOOL.
Hero: uh, I had quads
UTG+2: SO WHAT?? IT'S STILL A STUPID PLAY.
Hero: dude, quads is like the best hand ever

[Joe Tall]

He's the idiot for not check-raising the flop.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
So, and this is where I might be painfully wrong, I consider my hand a draw. And as such I want people in to give me odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

You flopped top pair, top kicker. That is likely the best hand. I realize it wasn't in this specific hand, but it should be played as the best hand until given indications otherwise. It is not a draw.

[Jim Easton]

[ QUOTE ]
So, and this is where I might be painfully wrong, I consider my hand a draw. And as such I want people in to give me odds.


[/ QUOTE ]

You flopped top pair, top kicker. That is likely the best hand. I realize it wasn't in this specific hand, but it should be played as the best hand until given indications otherwise. It is not a draw.

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
He's the idiot for not check-raising the flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's also what I was thinking. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Trix]

I fold preflop without any kind of read.

[ddubois]

Why check-raise rather than bet out? Trying to keep CO around?

[Mike Gallo]

At the risk of sounding cliche I offer this advice. It depends. /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Sometimes I will three bet with 10 10, other times I may not.

[Mike Gallo]

I fold preflop without any kind of read.

IMHO your giving a lot away if you make folding your default play.

[Mike Gallo]

I fold preflop without any kind of read.

IMHO your giving a lot away if you make folding your default play.

[sthief09]

I also fold preflop to an EP raise.

If the person raises with AA-TT, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs, you're a 3-2 underdog with 7 people to act behind you.

If the person also raises with 99, KQo, and AJo, then you're about even odds.

I think the "typical" player will raise with the first group of hands, or perhaps tighter, so 3-betting is wrong without a read.

If you're in later position, then the 3-bet can also be right, because it's less likely someone behind you wakes up with a big pair that dominates you.

Note: I am a huge hypocrite. PT has me getting TT 76 times, and raising 75 times preflop and folding once /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[PokerNoob]

From UTG+2's berating of hero, he sounds like he would only expect a 3-bet from AA, KK, QQ or JJ and maybe AK. UTG+2 is behind all those hands or splitting with KK. He's either got tainted and/or less than 4 ace outs, or 2 king outs or 1 king out to a nice 2nd best hand. He's got to check/call and hope he hits an out and its either not tainted or he's been drawing to a split.

[Mike Gallo]

I also fold preflop to an EP raise.

You three bet me last night with 10 10 you hypocrite, and I raised from UTG. /images/graemlins/shocked.gif

[arkady]

I think UTG+2's play of KK is so awful, that it makes any play of yours something he should study and read over 100 times.

[WarmonkEd]

I think I would fold this preflop, unless I knew that UTG2 was raising with all sorts of hands (Ax, any PP, KJ, QJ, etc...)

[Trix]

If I dont have any read at all, then I feel fine folding. I´m sure one of the calling stations will do their job, so I can get to see his hand and then decide what my move is next time.

[gamblore99]

[ QUOTE ]
The only thing you did wrong is responding to his inane chat. He didn't cap preflop with KK in a 3-way pot. I think we know who's making mistakes here.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the price of one bet he adds significant deception making his hand seem much weaker. Can gain him a lot of bets on later streets. However, i do agree that his play on later streets is garbage.

[sfer]

Heads-up I agree. Three ways don't get fancy for 1 BB. Plus he's out of position which gives him extra incentive to take control.

[gamblore99]

thats an excellent point about position. But if pocket kings was last to act in a 3-way pot then cap doesn't seem worth it. 4 people is where i think the capping might be a good idea

[PokerBob]

He should be giddy that you 3-bet when he had you CRUSHED. Depending on my read, I may have mucked it Pre-flop, but if you play it you gotta get this HU, so IMO a raise is the right move.

You got lucky, but weren't stupid.