Button bet/check dilemma

6-12 game that had been loose, then tightened up quite considerably. Nobody particularly soft in this game.


I have QhQc on button. Surprisingly, given the recent texture, 4 players call. I raise, the blinds drop, the other 4 call. $70 in pot (SB=$4).


Flop is 9 7 3, two diamonds. UTG bets, 3 calls, I raise, all call. $130 in pot.


Turn is Jd, and it is checked to me.


What goes through my mind is:


The point made in THFAP about betting hands with few/no outs in order to not give a free card and releasing those hands if raised. (I am sure that had I been in EP or basically anywhere but last to act I'd have bet out and likely dropped to a raise). Plus, given the fact that people here were decent, they would likely have bet a made flush if they had it, knowing that if I didn't have it I would not likely bet. Without a bet, I am probably in the lead still, though now J9 (2-pr) and T8 (straight) are possibilities.


However, since I was last to act, I figured that if I bet one of three things would happen: (1) I would win the pot immediately, (2) be called by 2-pr or better, or (3) be checkraised. With that kind of board I was unlikely to be called unless I was beat. Right?


So I checked. Weak play?


The river was 2d. Again it was checked to me. Without a diamond, did I really stand a good chance of betting and hoping that someone with the 6d or 8d would fold? Then again, maybe a straight or 2-pr would fold. Either way, I figured the pot was big enough that one of the four would call with a small diamond, 2-pr, etc.


I flipped over the QQ and to my amazement they all mucked.


Would you have bet the turn and/or river? If so, why betting rather than checking?


Thx,

99

You need to bet the turn for several reasons:

1) you probably have the best hand, and you could be called with several hands worse than yours.

2) When the flush hits the turn, you need to be aware that a made flush will bet in fear of the 4th flush card hitting the river. This is the only time most players should fear being beaten by a higher flush.

3) Because everyone checked to you, there are quite possibly straight and flush draws out there, that you need to charge for trying to draw out on you. BTW, I wouldn't neccesarily fold to a raise or a bet either.


The check on the river with the 4th diamond hitting is not a bad play.

Pocket Nines,


I would probably bet the turn, and hope to win it there. Checking the turn gives the 4 of diamonds a chance to draw for free, and screams that you probably don't have a diamond. After I bet the turn, and if I am called, and a fourth diamond hits on the river, I will check it down.


Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

On the turn in this kind of situation I consider these:


1) If I am ahead, how likely is giving the free card going to give away the pot?

2) If I am ahead, how likely is betting and having someone checkraise me going to give away the pot?

3) If I am behind, how much am I giving away by betting ie. how likely is it that betting will take the pot without a fight or that I will improve and win anyway vs. pot odds


And so I bet and fold to a raise by predictable opponents or I bet and call down a raise by tricky opponents in your spot. Because:


1) Someone with a small diamond or small pair may fold to your turn bet but if you give the free card...

2) If a predictable opponent checkraises then he has a small flush at minimum and your folding doesn't give away the pot. If a tricky opponent raises then he may have mid pair with the Ad or something like that and you should call down.

3) Well, this isn't a very good semi-bluff imo, especially against 4 players.


So I would weight these 3 things and I come out betting.

Pretty weak play from you on turn and river - you should have bet the turn, but given that you did not, at least bet the river because by checking the turn you say to them "I don´t have a hand", so if you bet river, there is a good chance that nines and jacks will call you.


An alternative play would have been to just call on the flop and raise on turn, because by raising on flop, you are just building a big pot (unless the bettor will reraise a lot of your raises, but I doubt that).

So your play is not that weak ;-), but I still think you should have bet the turn, given that you were not reraised on the flop as many players would have done with a four-flush (question here of course is how often will players check-raise you on turn a) with a four-flush b) with a flush). Checking the river is ok (unless your opponents will fold a low diamond in their hand to your bet).


Now the alternative of just calling on the flop, and planning to raising on turn if the third diamond doesn´t get there is even better, I think.