New WPT Hold Em table game

[swami]

Lakes Entertainment has a new Table game "inspired" by the WPT. See article for a quote by David Sklansky praising the game. Did you consult on the game David?.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040504/45080_2.html

[Dynasty]

What an assanine project for the World Poker Tour to get involved with and license. The whole point of the WPT was to increase the popularity of poker and bring players into the poker rooms. Now, they've decided to create a pit game which has the potential to draw WPT fans out of the poker room and into the pit. Pure stupidity.

[wayabvpar]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a casino-style Hold 'Em game that gives both expert poker players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning.-David Sklansky

[/ QUOTE ]

Wow- this is exactly the type of game I want to play after spending hundreds of dollars on poker books and thousands of hours at the tables. /sarcasm

What is the house advantage on the game? I bet it is ruthless.

[astroglide]

asinine /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point of the WPT was to increase the popularity of poker and bring players into the poker rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, no.

[astroglide]

wait, aren't all tv shows born out of altruism?

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Lakes Entertainment has a new Table game "inspired" by the WPT. See article for a quote by David Sklansky praising the game. Did you consult on the game David?.

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/040504/45080_2.html


[/ QUOTE ]

"This is a casino-style Hold 'Em game that gives both expert poker players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning."

Yeah. It takes away the advantage that good players have over bad ones and gives it right to the house. Sounds like there was a Sklansky quote taken out of context.

[Cubswin]

The company that owns the WPT (Lake Entertainment) is mainly in the business of casino development. The WPT project was quite different from the projects that they tpyically had been involved in before the recent poker explosion. I dont think they have a whole lot to gain directly from the poker explosion other then increased viewership of their show.

The introduction of this new pit game marks a bold step for this company in the table game development market.... a market that shuffle master (a pick of David's some time ago) seems to have a strong hold. As an investor, i dont think this is a very promising move for Lakes Entertainment. IMO they should focus on their casino development company and the WPT project rather then the casino game development.

regards
cubswin

[Wake up CALL]

[ QUOTE ]
The whole point of the WPT was to increase the popularity of poker and bring players into the poker rooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps you should tell your story to the people to created the WPT. I would venture an educated guess that the reason for the creation of the WPT was to turn a profit not increase the popularity of poker.

[MicroBob]

the press release doesn't give exact details about the game.
but that 50-to-1 pay-off on the two red-aces side-bet sounds GREAT to me!! sign me up!!

i guess there are various payoffs on the side-bet....so the fact that the aces doesn't pay appropriately without knowing the other payoffs doesn't really tell you much.


this game WILL succeed....almost undoubtedly in my opinion.

i dealt BJ, 3-card poker and caribbean stud (and another poker-carnival game with 2's wild) and all the talk on the poker-carnival games was of the poker on TV.
they had no idea what they were watching, or that it was called WPT, or that it was on the trsvel channel, or that it was on every wednesday night.
they just like watching the poker on tv,....even though most of them thought the bets were with REAL money.

the idea of the continuous looping-monitors with various clips of the show will draw the players.


some of the slot-machines themes work pretty well (Price Is Right, Wheel of Fortune among others) and they only copy the same music and design.
at least the WPT casino-game is a hold-em type of game so i think it will do pretty well.



i think those carnival-type games are idiotic.....and if i had my way they would be banned from existence....but there are a lot of people that play them and they are pretty darn profitable.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you should tell your story to the people to created the WPT. I would venture an educated guess that the reason for the creation of the WPT was to turn a profit not increase the popularity of poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have we decided to view the world in a completely static way now?

If I said DisneyWorld was built to provide families with a vacation destination, would tell me that I'm wrong and DisneyWorld was built so that Walt Disney Corporation could turn a profit?

[Your Mom]

Not a valid comparison Dynasty. The WPT wants to make money by getting people to watch poker as Disney uses Disneyworld to provide entertainment to families. The WPT doesn't care if people play poker; they care if people watch it. It seems watching it causes people to play it, not the other way around.

[Dynasty]

[ QUOTE ]
The WPT doesn't care if people play poker; they care if people watch it.

[/ QUOTE ]

They do care. They care greatly.

The WPT spends considerable time on all their programs promoting the game and promoting places to play poker. There are always segments devoted to making the viewer play better poker. There are also always segments promoting places like Foxwoods, the Commerce, or the Bellagio to entice viewers to visit the poker rooms in the tournament locations.

[sucka]

I see what you are saying - but there are STILL people that won't go sit down and play a confrontational game like that (my Dad is one of them - he would be a great poker player -very sharp, reads people well but he is extremely non-confrontational and would prefer to sit at the BJ tables), so why not provide those people with an option AND a game where a casino has a definitive edge on the player.

The people that want to play at the real tables will - and folks like you and I (and most everyone else on this board) won't go near the pit game other than to watch people throw away their money.

It's hard to extract ourselves from how we feel about the game and empathize with others who just like watching it on TV for the excitement and suspense but have absolutely no interest in going to a casino and sitting down at a table across from people wanting to take their money. If they can sit at a pit game and and hoop it up with others that are trying to beat the casino at a game they "know" - then so be it.

I don't think it hurts a thing. Sure, there may be a few people that it will take away from the tables but only time will tell if it will be a successful venture for them.

[Ulysses]

The point of WPT (http://www.ostman.com/alert-ipo/ai.exe?cobrand=edgar-online\neweol&company_template=company_business_&c ompany=6674)

[TimTimSalabim]

[ QUOTE ]
The WPT doesn't care if people play poker; they care if people watch it. It seems watching it causes people to play it, not the other way around.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it works in both directions. If someone watches a tennis match on TV, and it causes them to go out and play tennis, and then they get hooked on playing tennis regularly, that will usually cause them to want to watch much more tennis on TV than they would have had they not taken up the sport. I would wager that TV ratings for poker are much higher among people who play the game regularly. Just look at how most of us here obsess and dissect (and don't miss) every WPT episode.

[youtalkfunny]

You guys are all nuts!

This game will be INCREDIBLY successful! All the excitement of moving all-in, without nearly the risk! And you get to do it A LOT.

I'd love to see what the dealer's strategy is.

This game wasn't introduced for sharpies like 2+2ers. It's for the unwashed masses, who will gobble this up.

[Wake up CALL]

My thanks to Ulysses for linking to the "Mission Statement" of the WPT. It appears that it is a for profit organization after all, I suppose we must leave caring for the poker players to the United Nations and Red Cross.

[Ulysses]

I suspect this will also annoy you, Dynasty:

"We also plan to license our brand to International Game Technology (IGT) in connection with World Poker Tour branded slot machines"

[SDA004]

I think the pit game is a great idea. I don't think its made for "expert" players, and I can almost guarantee that no "expert" player will play other than for a few laughs. I know that if I see it at Foxwoods i'll sit down for a few hands on my way to the poker room. Obviously there's gonna be a house edge, and obviously its not going to be the same as actually playing hold 'em, but its a damn good way for the casino to make money and for people to have fun playing as well.

Oh and Dynasty, I'm schocked at your naivity. They show places like Foxwoods, Commerce, and the Bycycle casion as advertising, yes it promotes going to play poker, but not for the sake of people picking up the game, but for the sake of bringing in more dollars. As for the poker tips, how many of those have actually added something to your game?

[Gamblor]

Actions can have more than one purpose.

But I'd still argue that DisneyWorld is ecpected to turn a profit or it would have closed down long ago.

[ncpokeresq]

David previously designed a Hold'em table game, which was tried out at the Horseshoe, year or two ago, I think. This may be a rehash of that game. Like all table games it had a house edge, which David acknowledged, especially after a suckup tried to praise the game as +EV.

[slim]

I don't think that this new pit game will bring the fish out of the poker room at all. I can just picture it.....a group of WPT fans will be playing this new pit game and they will talk to each other about WPT and poker and everything else. One fish will turn to the other and say," hey have you ever played real poker in a poker room (especially if they win a few times at this new game) ?" and that's how it will actually bring more fish to the poker rooms. I really do see this happening. ALso, some people will really believe that their "strategies" at this new game can work in a real game and will want to try it out.

[slim]

What about this idea? If this new game catches on.....poker players can go and sit down at this new game and chat up some fish and tell them how much easier this game is to bluff and win , and how this game is exactly like real poker etc etc and "entice" them to come play a few hands at a real poker room. We can pretend that we've never played either and we can go together because we also feel "intimidated" by the poker room /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[boedeker]

8 to 10 drinks and im there with bells on ALLL IN!!

[trillig]

Interesting variant, additional 5x or 10x is required to PLAY the hand, and then only a shot if the dealer qualifies.... I see what evil lurks there!

Can't wait to see what the qualifying hand requirements are....

-Bri

[RollaJ]

[ QUOTE ]
This is a casino-style Hold 'Em game that gives both expert poker players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning

[/ QUOTE ]

How firmly was davids tongue planted in his cheek as he said this?? Try these on for size:

<font color="blue"> Roulette gives both expert players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning </font>

<font color="purple"> Sic-Bo gives both expert players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning </font>

<font color="red"> Slots gives both expert players and novice casino players an equal shot at winning </font>

Thanks for the warning David /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[MCS]

Anyone actually seen the game anywhere?

Check out http://tim.liu.home.comcast.net/poker/ for some info on the game (thanks to the site creator).

House edge appears to be 1.5% with an edge of 2.2% on the bonus bet. Both those numbers are smaller than I thought they'd be.

From the charts on the aforementioned site, here's the EV-maximizing strategy. I tried to make this as concise as possible:

Pair
10: Q's or better, 3's or worse
5: all else (4-J)

Suited
10: Ace-face card
XY where X&lt;=9, Y&lt;=6 but not exactly 96
5: all else

Offsuit
10: Ace-face card
Connectors from 76 to 43
One-gaps from 86 to 53
Two-gaps 85, 74
F: XY where X&lt;=9, Y&lt;=4 and not all-in
5: all else

What's noteworthy to me is that you raise so often, like with any two suited cards. I guess that it's hard to be enough of a dog to just fold the ante, especially when the dealer might fold.

This game is interesting to me, because the house edge is low, but it seems like people will play it very poorly since the strategy is not very intuitive. Specifically, I think people will fold too much and raise all-in with some hands like KQo. So I expect the house to actually have an edge far greater than 1.5% in practice.

This leads me to a new, exciting thought: could this game be subject to comp wizardry?

[brassnuts]

[ QUOTE ]
Pair
10: Q's or better, 3's or worse
5: all else (4-J)


[/ QUOTE ]

Could you give a brief explanation of why you would wager the 10x bet with 3s and 2s?

[MCS]

I'm just summarizing the chart I found at the website I mentioned earlier, but I'll give it a shot.

If you look at the strategy as a whole, you'll see that you usually raise, and you max-raise (10x, "all-in") with good hands and bad hands. You usually raise only 5x with the medium-strength hands.

My thinking is as follows: With the good hands, you raise 10x hoping the dealer will call and give you action on a huge bet when you are probably a favorite. True, the dealer will fold more hands to the large raise, so you may end up with only the ante. But if you have KK, it's worth that risk to get twice as much money onto the table with the 10x as opposed to the 5x.

I assume that with the bad hands, you are simply hoping the dealer folds, which is more likely to happen with the 10x than the 5x. I surmise that with a low pair, you would like the dealer to fold because your hand is not really very strong. You are usually a slight favorite, but possibly a huge dog. So you would like the dealer to fold here.

That's how I see it, anyway.

[Patrick del Poker Grande]

[ QUOTE ]
The point of WPT (http://www.ostman.com/alert-ipo/ai.exe?cobrand=edgar-online\neweol&amp;company_template=company_business_&amp;c ompany=6674)

[/ QUOTE ]
I thought this (http://www.gambling-us.com/images/shana/Shana1a.jpg) was the point of the WPT?

[mersilis]

I assume this game is set up like blackjack or caribbean stud with numerous players at the table with the dealer.

Given this setup is there a way to decrease the house edge by taking into account what other players at the table do? My thought is that any advantage would be minimal, as the optimizing bettor is in on almost every hand anyway...

Thoughts? Is there a "reverse gap concept" as applied to this table game - other raisers make you more likely to raise with marginal hands, as the dealer is less likely to have (or later to hit) high cards?

[stir]

That first paragraph sums it up succintly.

[PokerSlut]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you consult on the game David?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, he published an article about it in Gaming News several months ago IIRC. I'm not sure if that's the exact publication or not, but it's something along those lines. I remember reading it in the little lounge while I was waiting for my car inspection. At the time the article was published he had patented the game and was shopping it around in Vegas.

In related news, Hustler Casino is now spreading a new game called "Easy Poker" which is more similar to limit Holdem, except you have to pay an ante + initial bet every hand before you get your cards, and once the board is complete the dealer deals two hands to themselves and pick the best one.