I dont know what to do

[kiemo]

PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

<font color="green">The previous hand I was also dealt 22 and I mucked it to a raise by an EP player and only 1 caller to me. However this time it seemed to work in my favor until SB put his raise in, as I really really dislike playing 22 for anything more then 1 SB</font>

Flop: (16 SB) 3/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(8 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls.

Turn: (12 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(8 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB folds.

River: (18 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, SB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 26 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 26 BB, between Hero, Button, UTG and MP3.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Split: Button (8.66 BB), UTG (8.66 BB), MP3 (8.66 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG shows 7s 6d (straight, seven high).
MP3 shows Ks 7c (straight, seven high).
Hero shows 2s 2h (straight, six high).
Button shows 7h Ah (straight, seven high).
Outcome: Button wins 8.66 BB. UTG wins 8.66 BB. MP3 wins 8.66 BB. </font>


I was fine until the turn and then I get all confused as I cant decide how best to play my draw to the non-nut straight in a big pot.

[Lost Wages]

Heh, good one. With the huge pot you are forced to keep calling with what would otherwise be a trash hand. As it turns out, you were drawing dead on the turn.

Lost Wages

[easypete]

[ QUOTE ]
Heh, good one. With the huge pot you are forced to keep calling with what would otherwise be a trash hand. As it turns out, you were drawing dead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't see how you are forced to call the flop. You have an underpair. There are 7 other players seeing the flop. You have a backdoor flush draw that's no good. You have a backdoor straight draw that will only work if A and 4 hit. I think this a super easy fold on flop.

[Lost Wages]

He is getting 22:1 on his flop call and is 22.5:1 against catching a 2 on the turn. He figures to make a ton of extra bets if he does catch a 2.

Lost Wages

[afk]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Heh, good one. With the huge pot you are forced to keep calling with what would otherwise be a trash hand. As it turns out, you were drawing dead on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]


I don't see how you are forced to call the flop. You have an underpair. There are 7 other players seeing the flop. You have a backdoor flush draw that's no good. You have a backdoor straight draw that will only work if A and 4 hit. I think this a super easy fold on flop.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's getting 22:1, plus god knows how much in implied odds. He's got the backdoor you mentioned and a draw to another two. Folding here in a post this large is a mathematical disaster!!

[ZootMurph]

He's getting 22:1 on the flop, drawing to how many clean outs? I'd fold the flop. The ONLY way I will play a small pair after the flop is if I hit a set... anything else you have a strong chance of drawing dead to, as was the case here. I've seen this quite often since I always play small pairs. Many hands I've folded I would have lost a LOT of bets on because of just this situation.

Simply, play a small pocket pair for the set, and ONLY the set. If you don't hit it, fold it.

[Raiser]

[ QUOTE ]
Simply, play a small pocket pair for the set, and ONLY the set. If you don't hit it, fold it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinking like this ignores current pot odds and, more importantly, implied odds. It's pretty rare that the pot is offering enough to call a 2 outer, but it happens. I will call getting as little as 15:1 with a pocket pair if the board is right. You will almost always be able to make up the additional 7 SBs and then some if you hit because who's gonna believe that a 2 on the turn helped?

[Lost Wages]

There is no reason to believe that a 2 is not a clean out on this board. He was only drawing dead on the turn, not the flop. You don't often have the odds to draw to a 2-outer but when you do it is correct to call if your outs figure to be clean.

Lost Wages

[easypete]

I appreciate that the pot is big, and I am still relatively week w/ odds calculation on the fly (kinda how I originally replied earlier). I am still learning, so let me take another shot at it.

Ways you can win: Trips. you have an 8% chance of making it w/ 2 cards to come. That's like 11:1. You have pot odds of calling this, but do you want trips? On the flop yes, but that turn card.... I don't think trips are a possiblity there, because someone has an Ace.

Ok... the backdoor straight. Here's where I think I don't understand implied odds. You have to catch an Ace and a 4. With a 4 and a 6, you have not much to hope for here. Wrong side of the straight.

Ok... (4) aces and (4) 4s in the deck. thats 4/47*4/46... I see that as 135:1 of drawing the straight. 22:1 doesn't pay for that. And I don't think implied odds would pay for anything remotely close to 135:1.

The flush draw... Unrealistic that it would hold up w/ a 2.

Ok... say you called the flop for the trips and the 4 hits.... you need an Ace... that's 4/46. 11:1 there. You do have 15:1 at the time you needed to act on the flop, so in that respect, I say you can call.

So yes, call the flop... call the turn... you have a straight on the river, but there's a raise behind you. I guess you have to call.

It's a big pot, but I see it as -EV on the flop and would be glad to bail here.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Zootmurph:

[ QUOTE ]
He's getting 22:1 on the flop, drawing to how many clean outs?

[/ QUOTE ]

Two. Which ones do you suspect are not clean?

[ QUOTE ]
The ONLY way I will play a small pair after the flop is if I hit a set

[/ QUOTE ]

While if you play your small pocket pairs this way, you will be correct 90%. But here, you just cannot ignore the size of the pot. Situations will arise that demand you depart from your default play.

--Rico

[Lost Wages]

You are making this way too complicated. You don't call on the flop because you have a crappy backdoor straight. The last thing on my mind on this flop would be "gee I have a backdoor straight". No, I'm thinking "a 2 is a clean out and if I catch one I am going to collect a ton of bets". You call simply because you are getting the odds you need to spike a 2 on the turn. You are getting 22:1 pot odds and are 22.5:1 against drawing a 2 on the turn. Your plan is to fold the turn if you don't catch a 2.

Then a 4 slides off. If the pot was small I would fold pocket 2's on a board of 3459, you may be drawing dead or to a split pot. But the pot isn't small, it's huge. An ace has an excellent chance of making you a winning hand. A six gives you a small chance. You are getting 15:1 on the turn call, you only need 10.5:1 to draw to just an ace.

Of course the river brings a six. Now the pot is gigantic and you have to call a bet. When it is raised you have to call one more closing the action.

[kiemo]

As an FYI.

I called the flop looking for the set.

On the turn I missed the set but now I have a draw to a OESD. But even if I do get my card on the river, I have to ask am I going to win and drawing dead did enter the realm of thought.

Basically at this point I believe I have to call down becuase the pot is so big. On the river I hit my straight, but with 6 players left I essentially know I am beat by someone holding a 7. So I ask myself 'do you fold this knowing you probably beat?' Well not for one bet with a pot this size. so I call the original bet and cringe when its raised behind me. At this point I know I am beat and can safely save 1 BB, but make a crying call.

[DoctorDrew]

[ QUOTE ]
You are making this way too complicated. Of course the river brings a six. Now the pot is gigantic and you have to call a bet. When it is raised you have to call one more closing the action.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, but you are making this way too mathematical. The odds that your crappy low end of the straight is going to win this pot that has been bet and called ahead of you is so infintesimal, you can't call this. I don't care if the pot is 1000BBs. You will never win this pot at the river with this board and this many players. Is it mathematically possible no one has a seven. Absolutely. Would both of these players be betting and calling if they didn't have the seven? Absolutely not.

Fold the river.

[Lost Wages]

Do what you want with your money. I've seen players raise with 2 pair or a set on a 4-to-a-straight river often enough that I'm calling. At .05/.10 half the players can't even read the board. If if was a bet and raise to you then you could fold but it's not.

Lost Wages