AQs

[sublime]

Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed)

All comments welcome. A poor session $ wise and I didnt feel sharp either.

Preflop: Hero is SB with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $1.
UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) calls, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, CO call.

With a good hand in the blinds, how do you guys respond to a raise? With this amount of callers, I should have called? Or 3bet to charge the weaker hands?

Flop: (19 SB) 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Okay so more than likely we are talking high PP, I basically am tied to this pot dues to its size though. My queen may be dirty or dominated, but then again it may not be.....TT/JJ I am sure are possiblitys

Turn: (14.50 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, Hero calls, UTG calls.

The size of this pot basically makes me see the river, but WTF do all these callers have?

River: (19.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(5 players) </font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 22.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 22.50 BB, between UTG, UTG+1 and MP3.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by UTG+1 (22.50 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
UTG doesn't show.
UTG+1 shows Qc Qh (one pair, queens).
MP3 shows 9c Jc (one pair, nines).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 22.50 BB. </font>

[RED_RAIN]

Okay you are in the SB, first to act on flop, why 3 bet? AQs likes lots of callers, which you may knock out, or be going into a way better hand. Why bet the flop? Just because it's so low, you want to play like you got high pocket, now he raises now it's costing you 2 bets for a backdoor flush, pair of As or Qs which may both be no good. Good players I don't think would cap here preflop. I think you should have just called preflop then check fold on flop.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Okay you are in the SB, first to act on flop, why 3 bet? AQs likes lots of callers, which you may knock out, or be going into a way better hand. Why bet the flop? Just because it's so low, you want to play like you got high pocket, now he raises now it's costing you 2 bets for a backdoor flush, pair of As or Qs which may both be no good. Good players I don't think would cap here preflop. I think you should have just called preflop then check fold on flop.


[/ QUOTE ]

You are kidding, right?

[ QUOTE ]
Okay you are in the SB, first to act on flop, why 3 bet? AQs likes lots of callers, which you may knock out, or be going into a way better hand

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I am going to knock out all those hands that already put one bet in. And yes I may be behind a "way" better hand such as AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQs/KQs/QJs/JJ/TT/99/88/AJs/AJo....Should i go on, or is this starting to make sense?

Check/Fold on the flop? In a large pot with 2 overcards and a backdoor nut flush?

Wanna play at my table? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[RED_RAIN]

You aren't knocking out hands with 1 bet since it was a UTG+1 call. So yeah you can knock out the UTG one bet and potentially the BB. Great. You won't knock out probably anyone else unless the UTG+1 caps. You still have a weak hand in front. A call on flop could be much better if you check then see how many call and improve your odds for the silly backdoor flush (I love chasers). But betting in my opinion is wrong. You can call with a 1:23 or whatever the backdoor flush is. Once again I would be in this preflop with 2 bets so my check call is 3 bets as with you you are now at 5 bets. See difference? Tell me your BB/100 and I'll tell you mine.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
You aren't knocking out hands with 1 bet since it was a UTG+1 call. So yeah you can knock out the UTG one bet and potentially the BB. Great. You won't knock out probably anyone else unless the UTG+1 caps.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you read my original post it WASNT to knock anybody out. It was because there was a very good chance I had the best hand.

[ QUOTE ]
A call on flop could be much better if you check then see how many call and improve your odds for the silly backdoor flush (I love chasers).

[/ QUOTE ]

Chaser? lol, I love weak/tight players /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Why do you automatically assume my AQ outs are no good? Did you read my response to your original "ahem" post? There are numerous hands that could have been raised from that position.

Oh wait, I get it. You read the results!!! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Any more gems of wisdom?

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
Yes, I am going to knock out all those hands that already put one bet in. And yes I may be behind a "way" better hand such as AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQs/KQs/QJs/JJ/TT/99/88/AJs/AJo....Should i go on, or is this starting to make sense?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I'm saying where you say that you are knocking people out which you aren't.

And you are chasing cause you...ummm....nothing. High card. You think it's good. Good luck to ya.

[fluff]

Preflop, I think you can make an argument for both cases. Just calling would mean you probably get more callers, which a drawing hand like AQs likes.

On the other hand 3-betting will allow you to narrow down your opponents hand based on his reaction: people will raise with a lot of hands, but only cap very few.

On the flop, the bet is fine. You put in the last bet in previous round, so people expect you to bet anyway. You gain further information from your opponents raise as well.

The other option would be to check call. Check folding with 2 (good) overcards and a backdoor nut flush is just super weak.

So on the turn, lets review where we're at. Your opponent probably doesn't have AA or KK, since most people cap those PF. He probably doesn't have a drawing hand such as AKs, AKo, AQs, AJs etc. considering his flop raise. So I would put him at 99-QQ and maybe A9s.

Assuming all your overcards are clean outs, you only need 14 BBs (7:1) in the pot to call. If only 1 of them is clean you need 28 BBs (14:1). Somewhere in between that is your "happy number". Also, there might be small chance that both your overcards are bad (suppose QQ and A9 are out there), so probably err on the conservative side.

If at any point you can consider folding, here would be it. Although calling (when considering implied odds) is not bad either.

[sublime]

My post was being sarcastic, umm kinda like "there is about 0% chance that somebody would fold after putting in 1 bet". Are you high or something?

WTF am I chasing? I HAVE TWO OVERCARDS....HELLLOOOOOOOOO?????

In a huge pot. you do see that, right?

[mat]

the bet after the flop is understandable but so is checking and calling. why stay past the turn since you have no draw except two overcards with that many players probably arent good anymore

[bakku]

I have to agree with Red Rain here about not 3-betting preflop, you're out of position agaisnt an EP raiser. As for your postflop play, I can't really comment on it because I'm not sure what I'd do here...

[chief444]

sublime,

I think you played this one fine. And for the record, I agree with you pf. I would 3-bet pf about every time in this situation. You have 3 cold-callers between you and the initial raise as well as a UTG limper. I don't think 3-betting here vs calling is even close. I also wouldn't be at all upset if UTG+1 capped, which he should have. You probably don't have the best hand but will certainly win with AQs enough times to make raising with 5 opponents profitable.

[chief444]

Red Rain,

No offense intended, but you should really make sure you get a better understanding of pot odds and related odds. Even if the only the Ace outs are good here along with the backdoor flush sublime is correct in playing on...or as you say "chasing". You realize there are over 20 SB's in the pot when it comes back around to him on the flop right?

Based on UTG+1's play pf and on the flop, I would think there is a good chance that he had either Q's, J's or 10's in the hole but not A's or K's or A-K (most micro players wouldn't raise the flop with overcards). So even if you knew he had Q's, it would be correct to call here.

And pf you don't raise to knock people out. You just want them paying more when you have a strong hand. It doesn't need to be the best hand to make 3-betting correct.

[Raiser]

I would also 3 bet this pre flop. If you knock out a few, great. If not (much more likely), great. You have a hand that plays well against any number of opponents.

I like the flop.

Not sure what is correct on this turn? At this point you have to wonder if your outs are clean. I guess I'd call it too, hope I hit on the river, and hope what I hit is clean. But, I call down too often.

Any other thoughts on the turn play?

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Any other thoughts on the turn play?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the turn call may be the most borderline in the hand. But with 17.5 BB's in the pot when it comes around I think calling one more with two overcards is fine. Either may not be good but even with only one clean overcard it would be a correct call relative to pot odds.

[fluff]

I was going to edit this last night, but the forums went down, so here it is.

On the flop I think the best play would be check calling. You obviously can't fold, but you're out of position and don't really want a rise behind you.

Also, if you just check called, the turn decision is a clear fold, since the pot is now much smaller.

[bicyclekick]

I think the pre-flop 3 bet is bad at best, horrible at worst.

You're 3 betting an UTG raise out of position with a hand that's easily drawing thin to dead. How many hands are you ahead of? 10's, j's, and AJs. Thta's not many. I still think you should call pre-flop of course, but you're relaly looking to hit a flush draw. An ace is better then a queen, but if you flop neither, it's really hard to think of your overcards as clean.

you have 0 need to bet this flop. You want to see a cheapass turn card perdiod.

check and fold on the turn.

I used to play like this and I think it cost me dearly. So you had a good pf hand, the situation you had it in was bad and you over played it. Just don't do it next time.

[afk]

Sublime, I'm quite neutral towards the preflop 3bet - but to be honest I'd probably do the same thing. I like the rest of the hand.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you played this one fine. And for the record, I agree with you pf. I would 3-bet pf about every time in this situation. You have 3 cold-callers between you and the initial raise as well as a UTG limper. I don't think 3-betting here vs calling is even close. I also wouldn't be at all upset if UTG+1 capped, which he should have. You probably don't have the best hand but will certainly win with AQs enough times to make raising with 5 opponents profitable.



[/ QUOTE ]

Cool, I see the 3bet on the flop is debateable among all, but the way I look atn it is: Yes i am out of postition and MAY have weaker hand than original raiser, BUT there are also a poop-load of limpers who most def have weaker hands than me.

On to the flop:
I wasnt 3-bet so why wouldnt I bet here? While I was not betting for info, villians raises telle me PP. Now sinmce he didnt cap pre-flop, I still have to think my Q may be good. Granted its not squeky clean, but its still worth a call. As for the turn, It was the most questionable call I made. However the pot is huge and If I hit an A I am going to get paid off well.

Despite RedRains superb advice, I think I play this the same next time.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool, I see the 3bet on the flop is debateable among all, but the way I look atn it is: Yes i am out of postition and MAY have weaker hand than original raiser, BUT there are also a poop-load of limpers who most def have weaker hands than me.


[/ QUOTE ]

I remember reading an artical a few months ago that analized a very similar setuation...playing AQs from the blinds. It had a good bit of EV type analysis that strongly supported raising and reraising with a large field. I couldn't find the link but it was convincing.

[ QUOTE ]
On to the flop:
I wasnt 3-bet so why wouldnt I bet here? While I was not betting for info, villians raises telle me PP. Now sinmce he didnt cap pre-flop, I still have to think my Q may be good. Granted its not squeky clean, but its still worth a call. As for the turn, It was the most questionable call I made. However the pot is huge and If I hit an A I am going to get paid off well.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think leading out on the flop is very questionable. But the reason I don't have a problem with it is if you are raised (as you were) it does a couple of things for you. First it tells you that the villan probably has an overpair but more likely 10's, J's or Q's since no cap pf. So you gain some information and secondly his raise will actually help clean up your overcard outs, even though you are paying 2 SB's to do so. But I won't argue with anyone saying check/calling the flop would be better. I also think that folding wouldn't be a bad play on the turn. But all in all I think your play was fine.

Good hand to post. Definitely stirred some debate. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]
Cool, I see the 3bet on the flop is debateable among all, but the way I look atn it is: Yes i am out of postition and MAY have weaker hand than original raiser, BUT there are also a poop-load of limpers who most def have weaker hands than me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know we played for second place. I wish I won some $ for having second best hand in a hand. I just find the overall play of this hand going to be a long term loser. If you just call the raise preflop, check/call the flop, check/fold then turn, I'm sure that will be more profitable in the long run IMO.

[chief444]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know we played for second place. I wish I won some $ for having second best hand in a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second best hand pf with 6 players is often enough to raise with. You don't need to win every hand. You just need to win enough to make the raise +EV in the long run. JJ is better than A-K but raising pf with 4 other players all with weaker hands is profitable for both JJ and A-K. Occasionally you will be dominated with A-Qs but not enough to make raising pf with 5 opponents unprofitable.

[ QUOTE ]
If you just call the raise preflop, check/call the flop, check/fold then turn, I'm sure that will be more profitable in the long run IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Call, check/call, check/fold I don't think is ever profitable. Although sometimes it is the correct play, it sounds like you're thinking is a little weak/tight as sublime pointed out previously. Not trying to flame you...just trying to give constructive criticism.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't know we played for second place. I wish I won some $ for having second best hand in a hand. I just find the overall play of this hand going to be a long term loser. If you just call the raise preflop, check/call the flop, check/fold then turn, I'm sure that will be more profitable in the long run IMO.


[/ QUOTE ]

Dude, you are looking at the small picture and the results of one hand. Its not about winning every hand, its about making the most money long term.

[RED_RAIN]

[ QUOTE ]


Call, check/call, check/fold I don't think is ever profitable. Although sometimes it is the correct play, it sounds like you're thinking is a little weak/tight as sublime pointed out previously. Not trying to flame you...just trying to give constructive criticism.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I am actually a bit weak/tight as I'm trying to fill that leak. Just don't always agree with the aggression unless based on table.

[ZootMurph]

In general, I play this hand the same way preflop and on the flop. Please note that I say 'in general'.

Preflop: If you don't have the best hand going in, you are pretty darn close. This being the case, 3 bet works for me. Also, it sets you up for a possible winning bet out on the flop, whatever the flop is.

Flop: After being the aggressor preflop, you MUST come out betting on the flop. I'd be betting before the flop even comes up just to make a point. Once UTG+1 raises you, I'd call the raise.

Turn: If a spade, Queen, or Ace hits the turn, I'm betting out again. Otherwise, I'm checking and either calling or folding dependant on the card. With the 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, I call hoping for an Ace or Queen against that big ol' pot.

River: 2/images/graemlins/heart.gif! Awesome! Now I'm going crazy and... check/fold.

Hmmm... I'd have played it the same as you did. You MUST have done something wrong /images/graemlins/smile.gif