Disagreement part 1 of 3

[Kenshin]

A fellow 2+2'er and I disagree on the correct way to play three hands. In this hand, UTG plays loose preflop and stays within line post. I am curious to see which side of the debate most people fall on

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: protagonist is MP3 with A/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, protagonist raises, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG bets, protagonist raises, BB folds, UTG 3-bets, protagonist calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) K/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
UTG bets, protagonist calls.

River: (8.25 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
UTG bets, protagonist calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

<font color="blue"> my comments:
I dislike your play post flop here, particularly on the river. What hands would a player, even a loose one, re-raise with here? QJ, AQ, KQ, 910, a set, and maybe an open ended straight draw.

Basically, I advocate a call on any other card. But with this river, you can only realistically beat KT. If you believe your opponent will play KT in this manner, then perhaps you can justify call. However, I would probably fold.
</font>

<font color="red"> Debating 2+2er:
The combination of KT/J8 make this look like a call getting 9-1 on the end. I have also seen enough really kooky stuff like AT, T8, JT, J9 played this way. Not a no-brainer call on the end, but a call nonetheless.</font>

[pudley4]

1 - It's a fold on the river, but not one I could easily make during the hand.

2 - Don't post the results (even in white) because it will skew (some of) the responses.

[Randy Burgess]

I don't think the river is the real issue here, but rather, the flop &amp; turn.

Flop: why is the hero raising here with AK? We're told the UTG player tightens up post-flop, which means he is either betting a legit made hand or (conceivably) a strong draw. Admittedly the raise increases the chance of knocking out the BB and getting it headup, but you're getting it headup when you're probably losing - how is this desirable? If the excuse is that the hero is trying to buy a free card, I think this is an over-used play.

Turn: why no raise here with top pair headup? Scared off by the 3-bet on the flop? So I guess the plan on the river is to fold if you don't catch lucky?

Had the hero played this hand straightforwardly, his decisions would have been easier, I think. Namely: call the flop, with the intent of folding if the turn doesn't help (after all, the pot is relatively small); and when the K hits the turn, raise with top pair. If you get reraised here (on the expensive street - quite a different proposition than the flop) you can surmise you're likely trailing (since you say the UTG is not tricky).

This was a hand played backwards and upside down.

[Joe826]

After UTG 3-bets the PF raiser on the flop I would think about throwing the hand away right there. It's very likely she already has a set/two pair and you're drawing to your 4 outer in a small pot.

Edit: Relatively small pot, anyways /images/graemlins/cool.gif