POP it on the turn? FOLD the river?

[Schaefer]

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif. CO posts a blind of $5.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
UTG checks, MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Top pair, gutshot, flush draw. I don't know if I should raise here then check behind on the river unimproved or proceed like I did. I went my route because of the two players behind me that I wanted in. Finally, I feel like his betting into me showed strength and there's a good chance I was behind and would get 3-bet.

River: (8.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
MP3 checks, <font color="CC3333">CO bets</font>, Hero calls, MP3 folds.

I strongly considered folding here. I just don't ever feel 90% sure online.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between CO and Hero.</font>

Schaefer

[Trix]

Think I would have raised the turn, he could have any two as he posted preflop and if you are ahead you want to protect your hand against the two players behind you.
If you are behind, you probably have many outs as I think he would check-raise a strong hand here. The bet looks like he is afraid of a check-through.
If he 3bets you then you wont have to call the river either.

[MaxPower]

On the turn, Why do you want the two players behind you in?

[Schaefer]

Yeah I thought about this. I smelt strength in the turn but I agree that it's too difficult to play online limit based on feel. I like Trix's line of raising then folding the river unimproved if I get 3-bet. I protect my vulnerable pair and have enough outs that it's not a disaster if I get 3-bet.

Schaefer

[HajiShirazu]

Definately raise on the turn, looking for the free showdown. Your hand is drawing extremely live against what is likely his garbage two pair, and you might still be winning against some guy who decided to bet when he picked up a flush draw. If you are beat, raising may clean up your outs, and if you are not, it might save you the pot. With top pair 7, six kicker, on the turn, you don't want the others to stay in. If you are against 25 or 35, almost half the deck gives you a winner. And if you're three bet, you can easily fold the river unimproved.

[The Bear]

For those who think this is an easy turn raise, I have to respectfully disagree.

On the turn, we can all see that Schaefer has a very strong hand (flush draw, top pair, gutshot). But that fact alone does not mean that he should raise. We need to consider what his opponents hold and figure out how to force them in to making a mistake.

So what does CO have? Probably a trashy two pair that he wanted to protect when the board started getting drawish.

What about UTG and MP3? That's a little more difficult, since they haven't given us much info. My best guess is that they're both on overcard hunts. If that's the case, we probably want them to come along. We aren't cleaning up our outs. And they're each drawing to 4 or 5 outs (unless they have overcard spades, in which case we DEFINITELY don't want to raise). So with 4-5 outs, they are not getting the right price on their money. You can make an implied odds argument, of course, but their reverse implied odds more than compensate for that.

But suppose they aren't on overcards. Maybe they have middle or bottom pair. Again, no more than 5 outs. The only hand that is drawing live enough to correctly call the turn is 34 or 45.

Also, by smooth-calling, Schaefer doesn't risk a 3-bet from the CO, which would suck. The more I think about it, the more I really like Schaefer's call. If the pot were bigger, he can go ahead and raise, but at 6.5 BB coming to him, I say call and encourage UTG and MP3 to make a mistake. The other added incentive is the possibility of getting two bets from CO when you get there on the river.

Also, if Schaefer calls the turn, I think he should call the river, as he did.

Finally, as for the argument "If you raise the turn and get 3-bet, you can easily lay down on the river unimproved". Great, but you put 3 bets in on the turn, which is miserable!! Call, call sounds like a far superior strategy.

I'd be very interested in what everyone has to say about this hand. Maybe we can actually generate some good discussion.

The Bear