10+1 vs 20+2

[deacsoft]

I have been cosistantly beating the 10+1 single tables no limit games on party for a few weeks now. I find it very tempting to move up and play in the 20+2 tourneys. I have a large enough bankroll for it as well. I was just wondering if any of you have any input, suggestions, over all descriptions, generalizations, or whatever in regards to the 20+2 single table tournaments. How is it different from the 10+1 games? Thanks all!

[Chief911]

Heya,

Just outta curiousity, what do you consider appropriate bankroll for the move? And what is beating? I'm still working on it, so I'm sure I'm way behind you, but just curious.

Chief911

[deacsoft]

I have over $1000 in my party account and more to back it up on other sites and in a neteller account. I doubt you need this much though. I don't have an exact figure on the proper bankroll for 20+2 single table tourneys. Maybe some one else can answer that for us. As far as beating goes; I finish in the money 80-90% (closer to 90) of the time. That is also heavly skewed towards first place. Third place is slightly more frequent than second due to being a good heads up no limit player. So, I think I can move up but would like to hear a little about what to expect.

[Chief911]

Quit your day job, play poker. =P

Nice stats, I'll hopefully be there someday.

Chief911

[AleoMagus]

Nope, you never will be there.

Nobody, and I mean nobody finishes in the money 80-90% of the time. The best players finish in the money on party 10+1s barely over 50% of the time, and many great players actually finish in the money in the low 40% (highly aggressive players who like to take chances early will bust more often, but will enjoy frequent wins keeping their overall ROI on par with some 50% finishers)

I would venture to guess that the absolute upper maximum that ANY player could EVER get would be about 60% money finishes with less than half of those being wins. I've never heard of anyone doing this for any considerable length of time.

I finish in the money about 45% these days with 19% wins.

As for bankroll considerations, the simple answer is 20-30 buy ins for very little chance of going broke. Check out the recent FAQ post for a link if you are interested in a more precise mathematical explanation and more info.

Regards
Brad S

[Nepa]

I'v been finishing in the money alittle under 50 percent of the time this is in from 10 to 55 dollar SNG's on pokerstars. I have about 250 tournament in. Is it luck or skill at this point?

B.T.W. I don't see much different play from the 10 dollar to the 50 dollar tournament. The 50 are sometime easier than the 10 dollar ones.

[Kaz The Original]

How large a sample size is your 90% ITM?

[Jonathan]

[ QUOTE ]
As far as beating goes; I finish in the money 80-90% (closer to 90) of the time. That is also heavly skewed towards first place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Obviously, this is a person who has not yet purchased pokertraker.

deacsoft, do yourself a favor. Purchase pokertraker and find out where you stand.

Best regards,
Jonathan

[Profit]

Madison, nice to see a local /images/graemlins/smile.gif

90%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I gotta agree with aleo on this. I would imagine anyone who would actually be placing at 90% wouldn't be asking how hard the 20's are.

I've only been recording my SNG stats recently. Have about 50 recorded, ROI: 47%, Place % is exactly 50%. I've been on a bit of a hot streak lately, so those stats are a little higher than i would expect over a longer period of time.

[t_perkin]

My short FAQ (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/favlinker.php?Cat=&Entry=19436&F_Board=singletable &Thread=664102&partnumber=1&postmarker=)

Tim

[Prickly Pete]

There's not much difference in the 10s, 20s and 30s. You will probably money somewhere around 80% in the 20s and 30s, winning half of those.

But if I were you, I'd jump to the 200s. Those games are tough - so don't expect to money more than 70% though. Half being wins is still reasonable.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
As far as beating goes; I finish in the money 80-90% (closer to 90) of the time. That is also heavly skewed towards first place.


[/ QUOTE ] Obviously, this is a person who has not yet purchased pokertraker.

deacsoft, do yourself a favor. Purchase pokertraker and find out where you stand.


[/ QUOTE ]

The claim about the 90% is obviously ridiculus, unless he was playing very very few games. However, I don't see why you should have Poker Tracker to see where you stand? (or was it a joke?) SNG's stats can easily be calculated manualy. Saying he has 90% ITM, means he doesn't have a clue, period.

[aslowjoe]

Having just moved up from $10 to $20 I must say that so far I do feel there is a big difference between the two levels.
I am sure that there is some adustments to be made which I am having trouble making at the moment.my last 175 games $10
175-25-27-38. roi near 50% itm% 52%
$20
30-4-4-1 roi near 0.
Now I know 30 is not a big enough sample but I believe the play is better.
In one game I played I busted out 8th when blinds were 100/200
The games are definetly more aggressive most bets take away any drawing odds you might have.
Multi times in early rounds it has been folded around to the blinds.
There is still some bad players but on the whole I believe it is considerably time. With the exception of heads up play
I have found heads up to be no diff.Hopefully I am just on a bad streak and this is all in my mind.

[t_perkin]

It can take a while to get into the swing of a new level.
Especially at the lower levels where I assume that you are not as confident with playing in different styles to suit the makeup of your opposition.
30 is also obviosuly too small a sample.
Also (as you seem to have) you have a mental block about the quality of the opponents when you move up. Try moving back down to 10s for a bit and then just take a few pops at the new level when you feel your game is running well.

Also the players are obviously going to be at least a little better than the lower level. I have a read a few people saying that the 20s at party are tougher than they expected.

Play on friday and sat nights EDT time, this is when they are easiest, then ease yourself into other times of day.

Tim

[deacsoft]

[/ QUOTE ] The claim about the 90% is obviously ridiculus, unless he was playing very very few games.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't played many of these. However, the number that I have played, I have finished in the money close to 4 out of 5 times. I do not find these to be difficult in the least. Perhaps if all I did was play these single table tourneys and had stats for 800 of them my win percentage would be closer to 50%.

The point of the original post is not wether or not it is possible to finish in the money 80-90% of the time. I was looking for the difference between the 10+1 and the 20+2 single table tourneys on party. Those of you who have input in regards to this question I thank you.

[AleoMagus]

lol

[gojacketz]

90%? Maybe for a short streak, but that number cannot be sustained over a long period of time.

Can you provide the hard numbers on these and your breakdowns of 1st/2nd/3rd, I would be interested to see these results.

thanks,

Gojacketz

[deacsoft]

Today I'm going to hit it hard and I will post my results around 6:30pm (cst). I'm going to play in as many as possible no limit single table tourneys starting around 11:00am. I'll play mostly 10+1 but will maybe throw in a couple 20+2 so I can get a feel for it. I'll most likely run only two at a time because that's what I have been doing thus far and do not want to skew the numbers or have any excuses for poor play.

[lostinthought]

[ QUOTE ]
Today I'm going to hit it hard and I will post my results around 6:30pm (cst). I'm going to play in as many as possible no limit single table tourneys starting around 11:00am.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please post your one day of results, but this dosen't solve anything in this debate.. why are you being so hard-headed?

Look, your 90% in the money is not sustainable. Does that make SNG's unbeatable or unprofitable? Absolutely not. Just don't expect to have the same results over the LONG RUN. And by long run, i don't mean from 11am - 6pm today. I mean a couple months of playing hundreds on tournaments. That's a short sample size of the LONG RUN.

Also, the level of difficulty shouldn't be that much different between $5 - $30 on party poker.. these games are full of bad players..

[deacsoft]

"Hard Headed" I don't recall making any claims that this was sustainable. I don't recall saying I am a single table tourney god. I don't recall saying I would post my results today to settle a debate. I don't recall doing anything but posting a question regarding the difference between 10+1 and 20+2. Since then I have only responded to a few requests. One being what I considered beating 10+1. The next being what kind of bankroll is needed for 20+2. And the last being someone who asked me if I would post some results to satisfy a curiousity of his.

I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT 80%+ IS NOT GOING TO MAINTAIN OVER THE LONG RUN. I NEVER SAID IT WOULD. FURTHERMORE, I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE ANYTHING. Thank you to all who took a simple question and turned it in to a completely different topic.

My results, for any one interested, from today will be in a fresh post. One that, hopefully, will not be littered with trash.

[PrayingMantis]

[ QUOTE ]
Hard Headed" I don't recall making any claims that this was sustainable. I don't recall saying I am a single table tourney god. I don't recall saying I would post my results today to settle a debate. I don't recall doing anything but posting a question regarding the difference between 10+1 and 20+2. Since then I have only responded to a few requests. One being what I considered beating 10+1. The next being what kind of bankroll is needed for 20+2. And the last being someone who asked me if I would post some results to satisfy a curiousity of his.

I COMPLETELY AGREE THAT 80%+ IS NOT GOING TO MAINTAIN OVER THE LONG RUN. I NEVER SAID IT WOULD. FURTHERMORE, I AM NOT TRYING TO PROVE ANYTHING. Thank you to all who took a simple question and turned it in to a completely different topic.

[/ QUOTE ]

When you were asked what are your results, you said you get into the money about 90% of the time. That's what you said. After many posters pointed out that this is impossible, unless you've played very few, you admitted you did play only few of them. It took you some time to admit.

Now, saying you have 90% in the money, without specifying it's for a very short sample, can mean 3 things:

A. You don't understand the diffrence between results that come from a very small sample, and between true, statistically sustainable results.

B. You were trying to brag, or mislead neebies, or whatever, by letting them feel you ARE a poker god, who can make 90% in the money, although you knew it's only from a very small saple. This is not something people like to read on this forum.

C. You have X% ITM from a long-term sample, but invented the 90% figure.

Now choose.

P.S. I don't really see the point in posting your results for specifically today's 11$ games. Many people here play many games a day, and have different kinds of results. Why would anybody be interested in your results for today? I don't think that's the point of the forum, but I wouldn't mind reading your results... /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[deacsoft]

Took some time to admit it? Like the very next time i was on here and posted!!!!! I do know the difference. I wasn't trying to mislead anyone. You fogot thit could me 1 of 4 things. The 4th being: I over looked (forgot to include in my post) that I have only been playing them regularly for a short time. Why don't you conclusion jumpers hang me? Jesus! Come of your high horses. So many of you so quick to just start pointing fingers. Calling people this and that. For the 2nd time, I was only posting my results because someone asked me to!!!!!

This site is a poker forum and information center. You guys want to continue posting nothing but crap that starts arguements and accuse people of lying; why don't you try the forum at www.liarliarpantsonfire.com (http://www.liarliarpantsonfire.com) or www.weactlikekids.com (http://www.weactlikekids.com)?

Seriously I don't see where any of this is helping anyone.

[PrayingMantis]

It's completely fine, if you just forgot mentioning that you were playing only for a very short time. that can always happen.

However, the number of 90% is so amazingly huge and unbelievable (for a long-enough period, and that's what people mean when they speak about ITM, ROI, etc., otherwise it doesn't mean a thing, and there's no reason to even mention them), that mentioning it without adding that you've played only a few game, is quite a problematic thing to do, IMO. People are reading and writing here, because they are looking for reliable help and information about the game. The impression you made, was as if you're simply throwing fictitious numbers into the air, and that's not something people appriciate here. No wonder you got flamed.

[deacsoft]

Sorry. I changed my plans. Instead of posting my one day results I ,halfway, took the advice of some fellow posters. I have decided to gather some figures from more than just one days worth of SNGs. They wanted 100s but I don't want to wait that long to post due to the intrest level.

I have played in a few 20+2s but have only finished in the money once and it was first. I'm considering this coming Friday or Saturday to post my figures.

[trillig]

Not much different...

You'll do fine there as well...

$50 is your next leap IMO....

I'd suggest trying a couple of those....

GL!

-Bri

[Tapped]

People are still trying to be nice to this guy, when in fact he is probably completely making up the numbers.

Even if he were a god-like player, his chance of making the money 85% of the time in even as little as 2 days of playing (40 games) is only 0.1%.

Notice he never said how many games he's played to get this '80-90%' figure.

I bet you it's less than 20, maybe less than 10.

This obviously means HE HAS NO CLUE about poker/statistics at all, if he thinks a few hours of playing shows that he's a '80-90%' player.

[deacsoft]

I know plenty about poker statistics. And as the original post stated it was over a few weeks when I was first getting my feet wet. In that time I did play more than 20 games. I did not keep as good of records as I do for ring games and multi table tournaments while playing these due to the fact I thought I wasn't going to continue to play in them. Due to the success I had over that short period of time I decided to look in to it a little deeper and in to the possibilities of moving to 20+2.
I am now keeping good records so when I post my figures at the end of the week they will be solid. That's not saying that they will represent what they could look like in the long view but to say that they will be accurate. What do I have to gain by making them up. I have more than 10x the posts you do. Meaning I believe I have established some credibility. I post questions and topics that I need help with, give sound advice to others, and expect nothing less in return. Not comments from a$$holes like yourself who browse 2+2 daily looking for an agrument they can start or contribute to. You should try doing what the rest of us here do... we try to learn and help others.

FOR THE LAST F&%KING TIME... I NEVER SAID THAT I WAS A GOD OF POKER OR THAT MAINTAINING THIS PERCENTAGE WAS POSSIBLE. So let it go. If you have nothing positive or at least constructive to contribute; keep your bull to yourself.

[Profit]

we are past this, he edited his original statement. Looking forward to your post at the end of the week to see how it's going /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[deacsoft]

I had a super busy week last week and didn't get in as many as I would have liked to. I only got in 33 Single table tourneys. Most of them were at 10+1 but I did throw in some 20+2. Only finished in the money 13 times. I guess it's back to reality. Since my figures on those previous weeks are not 100% accurate I'm going to disclude them from consideration. After this week, meaning on Sunday May 23rd, I will try to post my complete and detailed figures.

[PrayingMantis]

Good luck what ever buy-in you choose. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just a thought here: It might be better to concentrate on ROI (return on investment) or $/H, instead of ITM finishes, since what really counts is how much you make, and not necessarily how often you finish in the money. Someone can have, for example, higher ITM than yours, but lower ROI or $/H, which means you're doing better.

Good luck anyways.

[deacsoft]

I have been keeping a close eye on this as well. I will post my profits or loses along with everything else. Thank you though. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[deacsoft]

This thing is weeks old right now and that is mostly my fault. I kind of phased out of the single table tourney scene a little. Maybe it was just excitement when I first started and was winning many times and then it just seemed to get old. I found myself not caring a couple of times where I finished and saying to myself "might as well call if you lose you don't have to play anymore". Can't win with that sh!t going on.

So the results of these figures are very inconclusive but I thought I'd post what I played anyway. Information includes...
stakes / start time-end time / place finished / $ (+ or -)

Day 1
10+1 09:08am-09:44am finished 6th -$11
10+1 09:08am-10:09am finished 2nd +$30
10+1 09:46am-10:25am finished 2nd +$30
10+1 10:10am-10:53am finished 3rd +$20
10+1 12:48pm-01:52pm finished 2nd +$30
20+2 12:51pm-01:33pm finished 1st +$100
20+2 01:52pm-02:16pm finished 7th -$22
10+1 01:53pm-02:17pm finished 7th -$11
10+1 03:43pm-04:19pm finished 6th -$11
10+1 03:44pm-04:38pm finished 2nd +$30
20+2 03:52pm-04:15pm finished 7th -$22
20+2 04:48pm-05:15pm finished 7th -$22
10+1 04:50pm-05:18pm finished 6th -$11
10+1 04:51pm-05:31pm finished 3rd +$20
Day 2
10+1 01:55pm-02:51pm finished 2nd +$30
10+1 01:56pm-02:49pm finished 3rd +$20
10+1 01:57pm-02:47pm finished 2nd +$30
10+1 03:01pm-03:43pm finished 6th -$11
20+2 03:01pm-03:37pm finished 4th -$22
10+1 03:02pm-03:03pm finished 9th -$11
10+1 03:06pm-03:49pm finished 6th -$11
Day 3
10+1 01:51pm-02:16pm finished 8th -$11
10+1 01:52pm-02:37pm finished 5th -$11
20+2 01:54pm-02:35pm finished 4th -$22
Day 4
10+1 07:42pm-08:29pm finished 2nd +$30
10+1 07:43pm-08:39pm finished 3rd +$20
20+2 07:48pm-08:23pm finished 5th -$22
Day 5
10+1 11:05am-11:53am finished 1st +$50
10+1 11:08am-11:26am finished 7th -$11
10+1 01:00pm-01:18pm finished 9th -$11
10+1 01:00pm-01:39pm finished 5th -$11
20+2 01:32pm-02:25pm finished 4th -$22
Day 6
20+2 03:10pm-3:52pm finished 4th -$22
Day 7
10+1 12:15pm-12:56pm finished 5th -$11
Day 8
10+1 01:53pm-02:26pm finished 7th -$11
10+1 01:53pm-02:42pm finished 3rd +$20
10+1 01:55pm-02:11pm finished 7th -$11

I'll go through and post total +/- and hourly +/- later today... I hope.

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
20+2 12:51pm-01:33pm finished 1st +$100
20+2 01:52pm-02:16pm finished 7th -$22

[/ QUOTE ]

These are inconsistent. If you lose $22 when you miss, you win $78 when you take first, not $100.

[deacsoft]

This is only gross at this time. I will be acounting it as net gain when I post the total and hourly rates.