AKo on the button faces turn check-raise

[ddubois]

Did I give up too easy? I just sat down, so no read on this guy one way or another. I wanted to look him up, but I didn't want to pay the 8$ to do it. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

HAND 1:
Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) 6/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, <font color="CC3333">UTG raises</font>, Hero folds, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8.75 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 7.75 BB, won by UTG.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by UTG.</font>

[ddubois]

Here's another TP where I didn't have the singleton suit and wussed out rather than risk the big loss. Does anyone fold pre-flop?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, K/images/graemlins/diamond.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, Hero calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, Hero folds, SB folds, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, BB calls.

River: (7 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, BB folds.

Final Pot: 8 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 7 BB, won by UTG+1.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by UTG+1.</font>

[ddubois]

One more. Re-raise the flop with the overpair and the gutshot? The turn seems like an easy fold.

HAND 3:

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q/images/graemlins/heart.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 raises</font>, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 3/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">UTG+1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, Hero folds, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 10 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 9 BB, won by MP1.</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by MP1.</font>

[arkady]

Umm....what? May I ask why you folded this? You think he has KJ?

[Bob T.]

and wussed out rather than risk the big loss.

You are saving bets, at the potential loss of pots. Which one would be a bigger loss? I am not going to tell you that you were ahead in all of these situations, but if you were ahead in one of them, which would have been better, calling down three times, and winning one pot, or folding all three times?

If you routinely fold in these situations, all your thinking opponents are semibluffing the hell out of you, and all of your nonthinking opponents are winning pots from you, just because they decided to try out a raise.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[ddubois]

More likely a slowplayed set, or he made his flush draw.

[ddubois]

Historically, I haven't routinely folded turn check-raises. Instead I've routinely gone into check/call mode, and routinely given away an extra 2 BB over and over for no apparent reason.

[slogger]

Fold preflop (assuming no specific reads). You're faced with an EP raise and there are 3 LP players plus the blinds left to act. This is not a good spot for KQ (suited or not).

Once you make this call, however, what flop would you have liked to see? If you were going to fold any Q-high flop, it further highlights the problems with calling the pre-flop raise.

I'd raise this flop because (1) you could easily have the best hand - hard to put pf raiser on a flush - so you want to charge any singleton spades for drawing and (2) because a 3-bet from anywhere in the field will let you know where you stand and may even push the pf raiser off an overpair (which would be nice if the 3-bettor turned out to be semi-bluffing).

[dmk]

I call the turn. I check/call a non-diamond and check/fold a diamond river.

I'd make this play w/ AdKx or AdJx as your opponent often. If you have a good read, its a safe fold, but otherwise you'll get bluffed frequently on scare cards.

[Trix]

1) Folding hand one is fine. It´s 3way, so he is less likely to be bluffing.
2) I fold preflop and I fold AQ here too. Raise the flop, if you aren´t player for a pair, then it should be a very easy preflop fold.
3)3bet the flop and bet the turn. If they raise you then you can muck

[dmk]

What hand did you put UTG+1 on that you're behind? AA/KK/AsKs? If so, fold pre-flop. If not, you should raise the flop. If you show no sign of aggression, there is no reason for him to slow down. If you get 3-bet, either fold or call and fold the turn unimproved. He could have easily been betting JJ and protecting his hand.

Without reads, I fold this pre-flop. If he is LAG/maniac, I probably 3-bet.

[arkady]

Trix,

Agree with you on hand 2 and 3, but I feel an UTG limper could be raising for various reasons on hand 1. I guess its a party way of thinking, but I been raised on the turn at party where my opponent had nothing more but a middle pair.

[ddubois]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop (assuming no specific reads). You're faced with an EP raise and there are 3 LP players plus the blinds left to act. This is not a good spot for KQ (suited or not).

[/ QUOTE ]
Please elaborate. What is a good spot to play KQs in a raised pot? I am happy to play this hand shorthanded or multi-way, am I not? I don't take an open-raise that seriously. Personally, when I'm first in, I'll raise almost anything I'll play, save for Axs and low PPs. I could easily be facing hands like AJo, KJs or 99 here.

[ QUOTE ]
Once you make this call, however, what flop would you have liked to see? If you were going to fold any Q-high flop, it further highlights the problems with calling the pre-flop raise.

[/ QUOTE ]
Obviously I do not intend to fold any Q-high flop, an average Q high flop is great for me. But when combing together the fact that I might already be dominated (by AA/KK/QQ/AQ), and then additionally having the monotone flop drop on my head, I just threw up my arms and gave up. I didn't want to go to war over TP2K when any spade has odds to draw me out. I know there's probably a 50/50 chance I'm ahead at this point, so I admit this was an emotional decision and a defeatist attitude.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd raise this flop because (1) you could easily have the best hand - hard to put pf raiser on a flush - so you want to charge any singleton spades for drawing and (2) because a 3-bet from anywhere in the field will let you know where you stand and may even push the pf raiser off an overpair (which would be nice if the 3-bettor turned out to be semi-bluffing).

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed.