what does he have?

[limon]

5-5 pl 2 limpers, over aggressive logical player (oalp)makes it 25, i call on button w/67 both limpers call, everyone has appx a $grrr. i figure oalp for a "real" hand here big pocket pair, ak, aqs. flop 6c6hTc, early limper bets 25 mid limper calls oalp calls i make it 100 all fold to oalp who calls. turn is 4c oalp jumps out and bets the pot...what do you put him on here? whats your play? my play below
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I put him on black aces and move3d him in. my logic was he wouldn't call with a flush draw on the flop and he wouldnt bet out with a full house on the turn i cant put him on a hand like a6 pre flop so i dont feel im facing 666 bigger kicker. it turns out he had AcKc and just got too attached to his hand, he busted me, does anyone think he played correctly? <font color="white"> </font>

[Scottnyce]

I don't think he played poorly.

What hand would you hold that he wouldn't beat if he hits his draw? 66 unlikely, TT, possible, but I would think TT would just call that flop.

He only has to put in $75 more into a pot already at $275.

I think the call is correct, he could still feel that his over card outs are in play, and that you are protecting your T.

[rtucker5]

Your results aren't in white so I saw them. I have no problem with the way he played the hand. He has to put you on a 6 or pocket pair when you raise the flop. He is drawing to the nut flush which is in all likelyhood good. The 4c is not a card that would fill you up unless you played 64. The only hand he realistically is losing to on the turn is TT. I think you overplayed your hand a bit.

If you read him for black AA, why not call the turn and see what the river brings? There are only 10 cards that can come off to make black AA beat you.

[josie_wales]

limon,

As far as he play, I feel he played it fine. On the flop there is $110 in the pot. There is a $25 bet, and a caller, thus its $160 in the pot to call a $25 bet...easy call with the nutflush draw and two over cards.

Once you raise $75 more, his $75 call into a $235 pot at about 3-1 doesnt seem to bad since you could be raising any number of hands from a draw to over cards to a PP.

The rest of the hand plays itself.

JW

[Scottnyce]

Flop 2 limper...5 +5
OALP....25
Limon....25
Limpers call.....$100 in preflop.

Flop
1 limper bets 25
2nd limper calls 25
OALP calls 25
Limon makes it 100
fold - fold (limpers)
OALP to act.

Pot is at 275 with OALP to call 75 more.

that gives much more then 3:1 odds

3.6667 : 1

Are these the correct #'s?

[limon]

...do you all routinely call people who raise through 3 players on a paired board with a flush draw? is this a profitable play that i am missing? i cant imagine calling with a flush draw in his position going to the felt with no idea if my hand is good or if im drawing dead.

i moved him in on the turn cause i thought he would call but dont really mind if he folds. the pot has like 1500 and he only has 500ish left. i also thought he might make a deal with me but he didnt want to.

[josie_wales]

I would think that *he* was thinking that you wouldnt raise with a boat here, and if you had trips, you would raise more to force out the flush draw.

Since he saw neither, who knows what he thought other than for $75 more he had a shot at busting a stack.

JW

[rtucker5]

To answer your question, no I don't make this call. If I had postion in the hand it may swing my decision to a call, but it is a fold out of position.

What does he think of your play? In his mind are you capable of making this raise with a lower flush draw? A pocket pair? Do you have to have a 6 or a FH to make this raise? If he views you as a tricky player that is raising with a wide variety of hands in this spot that he is drawing live against, his call seems automatic. The problem is he will never be sure his hand is good, no matter what falls on the turn/river. That's the main reason I fold the hand because I hate to draw to a hand I can't feel comfortable about when I hit.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

It depends on his read on you doesn't it?

I have never played with you, thankfully, but based on your postings here, I think you raise a lot preflop and you call a lot of raises preflop and then raise a lot on the flop. So I don't think a logical player can always put you on a hand they should be afraid of since it should be obvious you don't have to have a huge hand to put chips into the middle.

I do think its a gamble to call a raise on a paired board and against certain types of players its never profitable, but against someone who will call raises with suited connectors and raise through 3 peole with just trips on a paired board I think you have to gamble it up if you get HU's with them because they don't have to have the nuts to bet and if you only call with the nuts you are going to get run over all night.

Respectfully,
MarkV.

[turnipmonster]

if I was your opponent, I would not have called the 25 on the flop to begin with. if I had decided to call the 25, then I would be ready to go to the felt with my hand if I hit.

I am curious why you only made it 100 straight. in this situation I would either flat call or raise the pot every time. what was your reasoning?

you don't strike me as the type of player who needs trips to raise a weak underbet on the flop, so your opponents aren't necessarily going to give you a lot of credit in that spot, although they probably should have.

I have a hard time putting your opponent on black aces on the turn. the board is paired, the flush is there, and he's betting into an aggressive flop raiser with an overpair? I think he would have raised the flop with AA, I would put him on AK. easy for me to say now.

--turnipmonster

[limon]

beleive it or not im not a big fan of my hand on the flop with a bet and 2 callers coming to me. i have a very strong feeling im outkicked but...i cant allow anyone the right price to draw so i raised what i thought was the perfect amount to A. get draws to fold B. cause another player w/trip sixes to play his hand poorly giving me a free card on the turn when im outkicked. My raise spells big hand. It's a medium raise through 3 players if someone repops me i can release easily, if someone calls im checking through on the turn and calling/betting the river. the fact that someone called then bet out the turn was a fly in my ointment.

[limon]

getting yourself in a situation out of position where you may quite often be drawing dead goes past gambling it up in my opinion. ive played against players like me, i dont make this play against players like me and i definitely dont just sit and wait for the nuts. i will make alot of plays in an unprotected pot heads up but this pot is overprotected he should have known he was drawing slim to dead when i raise through the field. i think he has a clear fold on the flop. for the first $25 and definitely for the $75 back.

[wontons]

Yeah...I personally think the worst feeling in the world is calling an all-in when your drawing dead...and in this situation with a paired board it is very possible you could have an unbeatable hand....so yeah i think the other guy got a case of i want to lose my money syndrome.

[MVicuna]

Hi,

You said your raise was to discourage draws. Logically, if your trying to discourage draws you don't have the boat. Unless your using reverse psychology. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Since no one raised you, you assumed nobody has the boat. Why is it wrong for him to assume that also when the other players all fold?

His play was very close to being wrong, but given the way the flop betting went, I think most people wouldn't put you on the boat. Maybe the stacks are deep enough that reverse implied odds come into play here and that would make his play very wrong since he'll always loose a huge stack when you have the boat and only win small pots when you decide to fold on the turn. If you never fold when he hits the nut flush I think he probably is right in calling off a cheap card on the flop to see if he hits on the turn.

Thanks,
MarkV.

[limon]

im trying to raise enough that drawing is wrong, if someone wants to make a bad play i cant stop them. hes a 4-1 dog here and hes only getting 3-1 on his call and he has no way of knowing if i'll pay off and he has no way of knowing whether my "pay-off" is with a full and even if i just have trips i have a big re-draw...im still not getting anything that makes me think his play wasn't moronic.

[Nero]

I think he played it fine given the hands he would put you on. Your flop raise here defines your hand to 6x or a PP.


Here's why i dont give you any credit for TT.

Given the stack sizes i dont think you would make this sized-raise w/1010, as you wouldn't want to lose hands that are drawing dead/slim, the flush-draws, PP's, 6x's. You also have 2 cold callers between you and the aggressor betting your hand for you which he might continue to do on the turn. The stack sizes and pot size are such that you wouldn't need to build a pot by betting $100 on the flop, the money from 6x will still get in the middle on the turn or river. If the stack sizes were around $2000-$3000, then I might start worrying about you having TT.

Two Questions:

How much would you have bet if he checked the turn to you?
How much would you have bet if he checked the turn to you on a non-club?

[turnipmonster]

I agree. I much prefer betting the turn on a blank then checking the river. the turn check and calling the river line I like less.

--turnipmonster

[Garland]

Is this oalp a good player? If so, he's not simply calling mid limper's $25 bet with a big pair. There's also no way he's simply calling your $100 raise without a plan. You need to raise more than $100 to give him worse odds. The way I figure it, at the time he called he was getting $285:$75. And while it's not quite appropriate to call, the implied odds are there.

He doesn't have a big pair because it's a raise or fold scenario both times the action is to him.

You said everyone started out with $grrr? ($1000?). He called with the possibility of busting you and did a good job of it. I think he played it very well.

BTW, I hope that 67 was suited...

Garland

[limon]

when you hold aces and the flop comes paired this is a calling situation, one of the few. you're either wayyy ahead or wayyy behind, i think just calling here with black aces is exactly how a good player would play it and this guy is "good" he just has terrets of the arm, he bets in a far to predictable manner most of the time.

he has no implied odds he never knows if his hand is good. of course the odds are i dont have TT but i surely have a 6. when i set him in he mad a CRYING call, he knew there was a very good chance the 4 filled me up but he was in too deep by then. i had a massive re-draw and didnt break him, i should have broke him he played bad...im many of you play as he did and ITS A LOSING PROPOSITION. now, i may have played less than optimal as well but calling twice with a flush draw on a paired board then getting all your chips in is suicide.

my 67 was offsuit.

[Nero]

[ QUOTE ]
he has no implied odds he never knows if his hand is good

[/ QUOTE ]

no implied odds? he got you to stack off as a 3:1 dog. while ill agree his implied odds are shallow they are definately there. i would guess he has a better idea of where hes at in this hand than you did, which is why i like his flop call. it puts you in a tough spot on the turn regardless of what falls.

[ QUOTE ]
i should have broke him he played bad...im many of you play as he did and ITS A LOSING PROPOSITION. now, i may have played less than optimal as well but calling twice with a flush draw on a paired board then getting all your chips in is suicide.

[/ QUOTE ]

do you care to explain why you believe its a losing proposition. in general drawing to a straight or flush on a paired board and then going to the felt is a bad play. but you are giving up way too much if you consistantly fold in these spots. a T66 is not a likely FH flop given the action, and i know the 5,7 and to a lesser extent 4,8 are dangerous clubs. i also have a hand in which you have no idea where im at, which makes getting a free/cheap river card likely.
at the price you offered im seeing a turn card here almost every time. im not likly to play the rest of the hand like your opponent, but am calling the flop.