Strange KK hand

[Freudian]

SB is normally pretty tight and aggressive.
BB is a loose and poor player.
MP3 is somewhat loose and weak.

PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls, BB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, 5/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">SB bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">BB raises</font>, Hero calls, <font color="CC3333">MP3 3-bets</font>, SB calls, <font color="CC3333">BB caps</font>, Hero folds, MP3 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (11 BB) 7/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP3 calls $1.75 (All-In), SB calls.

River: (13.87 BB) 6/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players, 1 all-in) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">BB bets</font>, SB calls.

Final Pot: 15.87 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 13.62 BB, between MP3, SB and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP3 (13.62 BB).</font>
<font color="#990066">Pot 2: 2.25 BB, between SB and BB.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by SB (2.25 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
SB shows Td Ts (one pair, tens).
BB shows 9d 5c (one pair, fives).
MP3 shows Qd Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 13.62 BB. SB wins 2.25 BB. </font>

Too weak? Two of them would see the flop with A3 every time.

[sublime]

Fold to the first 2 flop bets.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold to the first 2 flop bets.

[/ QUOTE ]

And then I check the results and am astounded. As shitty as it must feel seeing that you where ahead, I cant see hanging around with a flop like that and 2 bets from the blinds.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Freudian:

Just calling the 2 bets on the flop leaves you wondering where you are. I 3-bet this flop everytime.

--Rico

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Freudian:

Just calling the 2 bets on the flop leaves you wondering where you are. I 3-bet this flop everytime.

[/ QUOTE ]

And 3 betting tells you where you are?

Against a TAG and a loose player from the blinds?

[DamnRiver]

With the info you had at the time I agree with Sublime...fold the flop. MP3 played their hand poorly and BB is a lunatic. In hindsight you'd have won but MP3 or BB could very easily have flopped a straight based on their looseness...

All in all I think you made the right choice.

[Freudian]

I would never had seen the showdown with four of a straight and three clubs and three people in the hand. BBs play is insane and thats what threw me off at first. I didn't respect his raise all that much seeing as he was a poor player. A more solid player and I would have folded at once.

[kiemo]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey Freudian:

Just calling the 2 bets on the flop leaves you wondering where you are. I 3-bet this flop everytime.



[/ QUOTE ]


I am going to echo Sublime here.

What does 3-betting tell you? besides wondering where you are when its capped behind you.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Sublime:

A couple of things.

First, do not take flop bets so seriously. Just because a "tag" bets that flop and some loosey goosey lousy player raises that flop does not mean that you are up against a set or made straight.

Secondly, my point was that by just calling the 2 bets on the flop, he is making his decisions more difficult on later streets (or on the same street as in this hand). Had he continued to show aggression, the hand will play out differently, and if his opponents are still coming at him on the turn, then he can reevaluate then.


--Rico

[Rico Suave]

So DamnRiver:

What do you think that the sb was betting and the lousy player was raising that you fold KK here. You think one of them has a set or a made st8 already?

--Rico

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
First, do not take flop bets so seriously. Just because a "tag" bets that flop and some loosey goosey lousy player raises that flop does not mean that you are up against a set or made straight.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see your points, this is the kind of situation where I get weak/tight. Rag/coordinated flop and being bet into from the blinds scare me a little when I raised preflop

[Rico Suave]

Hey Sublime:

Had he posted the hand like this:

"Preflop action Yada yada Yada

Flop 2,4,5

sb bets, bb raises, Hero does what?"

I suspect a lot fewer people would be advocating a fold here.

--Rico

[Raiser]

I'd 3-bet this flop also.

People could be jacking the pot with an OESD, BB could be on a decent overcard hand or overpair and wants to limit the field to the SB. Same for MP3. I think it's too early to be giving these opponents credit for a set or straight.

[CardCuda]

Even against the loosest and dumbest opponents I'm 3 betting this flop.

[DamnRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
What do you think that the sb was betting and the lousy player was raising that you fold KK here. You think one of them has a set or a made st8 already?


[/ QUOTE ]

A set - doubtful. A straight much more possible. Two pair wouldn't surprise me. With the loose players I've come up against lately NO starting hand would surprise me. Maybe I'm shell shocked from a string of bad beats lately but thinking either SB or BB stayed with A3s is not a stretch (as noted by poster as well). I don't think calling the first raise is bad, I think calling the second two raises is flirting with disaster. If this was 2/4 or 5/10 this requires more thought. In .5/1 and 1/2 you're going to lose on this particular hand/board more often than you win against lunatics in a multi-way betting extravaganza. Now if this were HU it would be a different story.

[Freudian]

Exactly. Normally we would see raises and re-raises on the turn in hands like this. And I don't think anything but another K would make me ok with betting 3-4 BB on the turn just to get to the river. When all three of my opponents show strength on a flop where I was the pre-flop raiser, it usually tells me to get out of that hand.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Damnriver:

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe I'm shell shocked from a string of bad beats lately but thinking either SB or BB stayed with A3s is not a stretch

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that this hand is definitely possible from either player, but it would take more than a flop bet and 1 raise to convince me that that is what they held.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think calling the first raise is bad, I think calling the second two raises is flirting with disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think calling the raise is really bad. Do you just call the 1st raise b/c you think you are behind? So what card can fall on the turn, other than 1 of the 2 kings, that will make you like your hand more? In addition, it makes all future decision more difficult.

I know it seem like I am being results oriented b/c the results are known (I really wish people would not include results); but, IMHO, hero must 3-bet this flop.

--Rico

[Nak]

Very interesting hand. I REALLY wish you would have posted it without the results.

Nak

[Freudian]

Then the obvious question is at what point do you back down from this hand? Would you have gone all the way to the river hoping your KK was good? Overpair against three players showing strength usually is a very poor prospect.

[Rico Suave]

Hey Freudian:

[ QUOTE ]
When all three of my opponents show strength on a flop

[/ QUOTE ]

When hero had the real decision to make, only 2 opponents had shown strength--with 1 flop bet and 1 raise. Had hero 3 bet, the hand would have played out differently. In addition, just b/c hero 3-bets the flop, does not mean he cannot fold on the turn or river in the face of continued aggression.

--Rico

[bakku]

Those of you in favor of folding on the flop for two bets should fold preflop instead.

[Freudian]

Suppose I would have three-bet. None would have folded and BB would have capped if MP3 wouldn't have. My aggression doesn't send any real message here. I see aggression with overpair in these cases more like a recipe for getting myself trapped than a proper move. Even if once in a while I would win the pot, like here. If I had been the last to act perhaps I would have re-raised to see what would happen.

[sublime]

[ QUOTE ]
Those of you in favor of folding on the flop for two bets should fold preflop instead.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken /images/graemlins/smile.gif


The more I think about it, the more it makes sense. I am being afraid of a weak player limping with a weak hand. The 3-bet may slow things down a tad /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Raiser]

You aren't 3-betting to make people go away. You are 3-betting because you have a very good hand and there is no reason at this point to believe that you are behind.

Once the river comes and there is a 1 card straight sitting out there, if there is still a lot of action, then you can lay it down. On the flop, with this board, I think you have to 3-bet it.

[DamnRiver]

[ QUOTE ]
When hero had the real decision to make, only 2 opponents had shown strength--with 1 flop bet and 1 raise. Had hero 3 bet, the hand would have played out differently. In addition, just b/c hero 3-bets the flop, does not mean he cannot fold on the turn or river in the face of continued aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, I can get behind this... Looking at it from this perspective when Hero calls, calling shouldn't have been an option. Either fold or raise. I wouldn't fold this here so I can see where raising is the correct choice.

I also agree that the hand might have turned out differently but there's no way of knowing that.

I appreciate your persistance!