How loose am I?

[cianosheehan]

On PokerStars they have the percentages of how often you see flop. Out of a total of 750, I saw flop 256 times (which is 34%). Is this figure a sign of looseness? My total pots won for this figure is 79. Any opinions? I feel I am playing fairly tightly.

[Nemesis]

Looser than a 5 dollar japanese hooker... but in all seriousness that's not enough hands to tell. You may be playing too loose, or you just happen to be getting a lot of good cards that are legitimately playabele. Play a few thousand more hands and you can START to analyze your numbers. Poker Tracker is a useful tool which will break all your numbers and what they mean down... get it.

[SofaCoach]

Nemesis, it took me 5 minutes to read your post. I'd read a couple words, glance back at your avatar, and forget what I was thinking.

34% sounds very high, but I assume that includes the blinds, so maybe not so bad. And depending on how loose the table is winning over 30% of the flops you see isn't bad. (if 4 or more see the flop you're winning more than your fair share)

[illunious]

If you are playing 10 handed, this is loose.

I suggest posting the next 20 or so hands you play (with pre-flop action) to get an idea of what hands you should be folding.

[illunious]

[ QUOTE ]
but in all seriousness that's not enough hands to tell.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it is more than enough. A very good run of cards may be to blame, but I use this stat in notes on players with only 50 hands, and it is normally accurate even with this small number of hands.

My saw flop % on sessions of 200-500 hands never seems to be more than 5% from my average.

[cianosheehan]

this does include my blinds
I have been getting decent cards, but mostly being destroyed in one form or another. Basically breaking even which is frustrating. As far as I know I am playing sensibly
What is anyones opinion on playing 3 games at once?

[illunious]

Yes, I know it includes the blinds.

You may be getting great cards (and great situations to play them in), but my guess is that you are calling pre-flop with offsuit big cards, small pocket pairs and suited aces where you should be folding them. Again, please consider my suggestion on posting the next 20 or so hands you call with preflop, you may be surprised what the comments are.

Multitabling is a great way to increase your overall win rate. I am usually playing 6-8 tables and scouting a couple more. This (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=599806&page=&view=&sb=5&o =&vc=1) is a good post about it.

[SoCalPat]

If you saw 34 percent of the flop over a span of 3,000-4,000 hands, I guarantee your bankroll would suffer. No way could anyone come out a winner with this stat.

[siccjay]

[ QUOTE ]
If you saw 34 percent of the flop over a span of 3,000-4,000 hands, I guarantee your bankroll would suffer. No way could anyone come out a winner with this stat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't have poker tracker yet because I'm too cheap BUT I see 30%-35% of flops on Party .50/1 and I do very very well. As long as you play well post flop you will be ok. If I was multi-tabling as much as everyone else I probably would tighten up some, but I rely on my reads on players when I'm in a questionable pot.

[cianosheehan]

[ QUOTE ]

You may be getting great cards (and great situations to play them in), but my guess is that you are calling pre-flop with offsuit big cards, small pocket pairs and suited aces where you should be folding them.

[/ QUOTE ]
True. I have been calling with low pocket pairs, hoping to hit sets. Is something like KQ off, or QJ off not good enough to call with? What about hands like 910 suited, 8 9 suited etc.?
Thanks

[ZootMurph]

I play small pocket pairs regularly, and I am ahead over 15k hands with all pocket pairs but JJ and 22 (haven't hit a set on 22 yet here). Since most .5/1 PP games you are getting many limpers, you can limp in cheap with correct odds. And, when you hit the set you normally get PLENTY of action. The problem area for many is letting them go when you don't hit the set. I am prepared for immediate release if I don't hit the set, and immediate aggression if I do. So, if you play them correctly, when you flop a set it more than makes up for the many times you throw in one small bet. Also, I see a lot of people raise preflop or cold call more than 1 bet preflop with small pocket pairs... both are not +EV.

As for suited Aces, I play them in late positions with a lot of limpers. Again, I release if I don't flop a flush draw. Depending on the rag I'm playing with, I will fold to a bet when an Ace flops as well.

My point is that speculative hands CAN be profitable over the long run in microlimit games, if you play them at the right times and in the right ways.

[The Bear]

You don't have enough hands to judge your general looseness, but if that is any reflection of overall play, you are ridiculously loose. So loose that I doubt you are a winning player. Re-read your poker literature.

The Bear

[StellarWind]

I think you are probably too loose based on the 34% number and your statement that you are breaking even.

1. You are playing substantially more hands than most good players play.

2. You are playing hands that *you* cannot make money on, regardless of what someone else might be able to do.

You should be making lots of money on your premium hands. We all do. If you are breaking even I can only assume that you are losing lots of money on the worst hands you play. Throw out those money losers and profits will appear.

Enough with numbers. Post your standards. Under normal conditions, what hands will you:

1. Play UTG.

2. Play MP3 with one limper.

3. Play CO with three limpers.

4. Play UTG+1 with an open raise in front of you.

Do this now and I promise you'll know what's wrong by the end of the day.

[Nak]

My saw flops all hands is %24.1, but I do play at UB. If you were to play at UB in the day time, you would be seeing more flops than a lot of the tables with that stat.

Nak

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I play small pocket pairs regularly, and I am ahead over 15k hands with all pocket pairs but JJ and 22 (haven't hit a set on 22 yet here).

[/ QUOTE ]
This statement alludes to a serious mathematical fallacy.

You are making money overall playing 33. I'll even assume that your results are statistically significant. So what? That doesn't tell us whether you play 33 too much or too little.

We all make money when we complete the SB with 33 against eight limpers. No one makes money with 33 by coldcalling the cap at the 2+2 table. Between these two extremes lies an entire continuum of good, fair, and bad places to play 33.

If you only play 33 in the "really, really good" spots you will undoubtedly have a very high profit per hand played but you will miss many opportunities. If you loosen up and also play 33 when it is merely "good" you will make more money overall but your average profit per 33 played will drop. That is because "good" situations are profitable but not as profitable as "really, really good" situations. Now loosen up further and play "barely profitable" situations. Your total profits will increase a little bit but your average per 33 played will drop quite a lot.

Now crossover to the dark side and play 33 in moderately unprofitable situations. Now your total profits start dropping because you are taking losses on these extra hands. Still, even though your average per 33 played continues to drop you are a winner. The fat profits from "really, really good", "good", and even "barely profitable" situations are covering your losses on the unprofitable hands.

By the time your statistically significant average profit on 33 reaches zero you are screwing up big time. You have to be playing many, many bad situations to lose all of the profits from the good situations that you are also playing.

This concept is basic to economics. It's called "marginal profit". The idea is to play 33 in all situations where the EV (marginal profit) is positive. If you do this correctly your average profit on 33 should be *far* above zero because so many great situations are included in the average.

[MortalNuts]

it's a really, really bad idea for you to start multitabling before you are quite confident you are a winning player at ONE table. I know of no player whose BB/100/table actually went up when they started playing more tables, so if you're a break-even player now, you will lose money by multitabling. Besides which, I'm still firmly of the opinion that playing one table at a time is the best way to improve your game, even if it's not the best way to make money in the short-term.

while I'm posting: 35% is significantly too loose in that game unless you are at tables with literally no preflop raising. (if you are at such tables, it's not wildly out of line -- it's consistent, anyway, with being in the BB 10% of the time, putting money into the pot voluntarily about 20% of the time, and completing in the SB about 5% of the time.) the numbers can hide a lot of sins, though -- really, post some hands.

good luck.

cheers,

mn

[k000k]

[ QUOTE ]
True. I have been calling with low pocket pairs, hoping to hit sets. Is something like KQ off, or QJ off not good enough to call with? What about hands like 910 suited, 8 9 suited etc.?
Thanks

[/ QUOTE ]
Depends on your position and what happened before the action got to you. KQo and QJo are easy folders UTG but calling is ok in MP, and maybe even a raiser in LP. T9s and 98s are playable in LP or even MP on a loose passive table.

To answer your original q, I think 35% is pretty loose... And your win rate when seeing the flop shows it.. Your win% when you see the flop should be at least 33%.. You'd find yourself in a lot less iffy situations if you tightened up a bit. The hands you'd cut out are not big winners anyway, they're practically zero, so you might as well save the PF call. Call a few less hands, you'll get outkicked less, and your pairs and 2pairs will stand up a lot more. If you play KTo, what would you rather hit? T's have a lotta overcards, and you'd have a crappy kicker with K's.

[cianosheehan]

Thanks everyone for replies.
After my approximately break even night, I read advice which was in response to my initial post. After about 5 - 6 hours of play today, playing mostly on 3 tables, and towards the end on 4, I made profit of between $25-$30, on .25/.5 on Poker Stars. I'm happy with this result. I tightened up my game considerably, folding most small pocket pairs, Ace x's, and K 10's etc. I'm starting to learn just to let good hands go, when I feel they are beaten, but want to stick with it. In saying that, there were a few hands that I should have let go but didnt, and this turned out for the worse, but in some cases, the better. This is an example of some of the hands that I was not sure of how best to play them. All advice most welcome
PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, K/images/graemlins/heart.gif. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises, MP3 folds, CO (poster) folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds.

Flop: (8.40 SB) Q/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (5.70 BB) 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG folds.

River: (7.70 BB) J/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 9.70 BB

Results in white below: <font color="white">
BB shows 6h 6s (one pair, sixes).
Hero shows Ah Kh (high card, ace).
Outcome: BB wins 9.70 BB. </font>

[StellarWind]

It is very disappointing that they both called. Probably at least one of them is hugging a pair. I would check the turn and fold the river when I didn't improve.

Betting the turn is a reasonable idea and it could have worked.

Betting the river is a mistake. You are very close to the anti-ideal for a bet. You have exactly what he expects and he will only call with a pair. Take the free showdown.

[afk]

This is a situation I'm not as sure about on the turn. I'll usually bet the turn here and if called, check behind on the river. A lot of players will go to showdown with any pair.