mike l., expert hand reader

[mike l.]

20-40 good game. this kid on my direct right is brand new to 20-40, he usually plays 8-16. 4 limpers including him and i just call two chips in the sb w/ KQo. bb checks.

the flop is JJ4 rainbow. checked around pretty convincingly.

the turn is T. i bet, folded around to the button and he stalls a short second and then raises and i can tell, i just know with every fiber of my poker being that he has exactly Q9 and that i will checkraise him on the river and earn the most that way. then why not 3 bet him right now mike? because then if he makes his hand i lose 3 bets instead of two.

so i have it all planned out.

the river is some card i dont really look at it i just see that it doesnt make my straight. i check, he bets, ah ha
i got you you little punk! RAISE! he pauses a second and says "i just call" and flips over Q9. huh?

"i made a straight on ya" he says. "guess you had the jack?" i finally really look at the river card and see that it's an 8.

"yeah you caught me.", i say, "nice catch man".

[andyfox]

My stupidest-things-I've-ever-done-at-the-poker-table list trumps this one, believe it or not. And I will not be goaded to posting about them.

[HiatusOver]

Mike what the hell are you talking about in this post? What is the point of check-raising the river if you know he has has Q9? To get a call out of Q high?? Why not just check-call the river? Also, the way to make the most money here is to 3-bet the turn and then check the river if you know he has Q9. Do you want to edit your post or something? this makes no sense

[HiatusOver]

How is this a great post? What is great about it? What exactly is the point of the river check-raise?

[andyfox]

I loved the irony. mike knew exactly what he had but had a disconnect from point A to point B.

If I knew the guy had exactly Q-9 I'd check-raise so that I didn't have to show my cards when he folded to the raise.

[Mike Gallo]

My stupidest-things-I've-ever-done-at-the-poker-table list trumps this one, believe it or not. And I will not be goaded to posting about them.


I seem to recall you posting one this year in a response to a Josh W post. I will have to do some research now.

I vaguely remember the post. I want to say that your Ace high would have won, but you misread the board. Please correct me if I have miscontrued any information.

Like how I politley attempted to goad you /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Mike Gallo]

How is this a great post? What is great about it? What exactly is the point of the river check-raise?

Because Mike made a great read and a great play. He encountered one problem, he failed to read the board to see that the 8 gave his opponent who held the Q9 a straight.

I give him a lot of credit for posting this hand.

[J_V]

No, mike's play in this hand is hideous. I am not impressed by the Q9 read because even if it was right this time, it's likely to be wrong 90%+ of the other times.

But the main problem is that mike l, butchered the "open hand" problem.

[mike l.]

"Why not just check-call the river?"

because what if im wrong and he has the same KQ or A high or something?

btw the main point of the post was to relay a funny incident where i made an ass of myself, not to argue over whether i shouldve 3 bet the turn or check-called the river or whatever. in other words the post was definitely not for a sad egomaniacal mike l.-hating cretin like JV.

[Philuva]

I think Andy failed to call an extra $5 to an all-in player on the river in a $1M dollar pot with his K high which would have beat a Q high. Or something like that...

[elindauer]

[ QUOTE ]
If I knew the guy had exactly Q-9 I'd check-raise so that I didn't have to show my cards when he folded to the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is interesting. How often do you get the opportunity to announce to the table that you are a major calling station? What kind of impact does calling down with king high have on your image? If you check-raise, it just tells the table you had a jack, so who cares. Next hand. You check call though, and you are a major fish. He missed his straight and called? Who is this guy? Say something like "the pots too big, I have to call" or "you have the jack, don't you" or even better "yeah... I missed my straight" and dejectedly throw in your money like you expect to lose. The whole table might go on tilt.

As a tight and aggressive player, I'd think convincing the table that you are loose and passive could be pretty sweet.

[andyfox]

Lighten up, my friend. The man was making fun of himself, in light of his river mistake.

As to his read, I am impressed. mike is a superb reader. He had this one pegged perfectly, based on the way his opponent played in general, and the way he raised the turn. If mike was wrong, it wouldn't have been that his opponent had a set; he would have folded to mike's river check-raise.

And anyway, that's not the point of the post, as mike points out.

Poker's supposed to be fun, remember?

[andyfox]

While there are indeed advantages to getting a player (or players) to think you play differently than you do, showing that you will call down with nothing might get them all to start tightening up. To me, any time I can get away with not showing my cards is a bigger advantage than any advantage I might get from showing them.

[Mike Gallo]

To me, any time I can get away with not showing my cards is a bigger advantage than any advantage I might get from showing them.

Spoken like someone who has become a disciple of Tommy Angelo /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[J_V]

I know you are friends, but this is a strategy forum and the "strategy" is this hand was horrendous.

He was making fun of himself on the river where I was talking about his overall thought process.

[J_V]

lol...I think I have to look up cretin. I hope it's nicer than sad egomaniacal...

[mike l.]

"the "strategy" is this hand was horrendous."

fair enough. so for the sake of learning would you please tell us exactly how you would have played the hand and dont forget to detail why. really appreciate it.

[Robk]

With regard to the open hand problem, 3 betting the turn is correct IMO. On 7 straight cards you make an extra bet by just calling the turn. But 3 betting makes you an extra bet on the two queens. That means I only have to find 5 cards he won't bluff on the river for 3 betting the turn to be more profitable. I can't see him betting a jack (2), ten (3), or nine (3).

[J_V]

no way, you called me a cretin. That's where i draw the line.

[J_V]

I'm suprised Vehn hasnt poker his nose in here.

[Vehn]

I usually leave the MHSHE-california-man-on-man-fellatio bashing stuff to astroglide.

[mike l.]

coward. i shouldve known you wouldnt actually participate in any real poker strategy discussion. hey jailbait, i think i hear them barbells calling.

[J_V]

I don't know much about poker mike.

I specialize in well-timed ribs and off-color jabs.

I'm just lucky that my rapist wit covers for my lack of poker knowledge.

It's sort've like Lamar Odom, sometimes all you need is a left-hand, if it's THAT GOOD.

[mike l.]

"It's sort've like Lamar Odom"

you win. that was actually really funny and clever. let me buy you a cocktail or 3 next time youre at commerce.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just lucky that my rapist wit covers for my lack of poker knowledge.

[/ QUOTE ]

[hutz]

I've been checking this thread for updates hoping in vain that JV's rapist wit would result in some new Kobe Bryant jokes. Oh well. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[Inthacup]

hutz, since you hold others to such high standards, please keep this OT crap off of the strategy forums.


mike, nice read.



Cup

[Steve Giufre]

The only way you could check call this river is if you saw his hand. The pot is big and if he shows down ace high you are gonna throw up. Considering you played the turn the way you did, I think it's close between check raising the river and just leading at it. You need to be petty certain he is gonna bet when he misses, since there is the possiblity he made a play with ace high instead of Q9.

[J_V]

Definitely mike, it would be cool to meet in person. Our verbal jousts are always a good time and never meant maliciously on my end.

If you're two on my right, we'll have squeeze Ulysses in the middle. I could use a loose overagrro fishcake to take some of the blind heat with me.

[Ulysses]

[ QUOTE ]
Definitely mike, it would be cool to meet in person. Our verbal jousts are always a good time and never meant maliciously on my end.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes you are so sensitive.

[ QUOTE ]
If you're two on my right, we'll have squeeze Ulysses in the middle. I could use a loose overagrro fishcake to take some of the blind heat with me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Done. I will run all over you two retards.

[mike l.]

"Done. I will run all over you two retards."

oh dude you are so not gonna do that.

[dm34]

Thank you.