Was this unethical?

[UMTerp]

$20-$40 game at the Taj. I'm about 26 hours into my 28-hour session (ugh), and this hand comes up. My opponent in question this hand is the worst $20-$40 player I've ever seen, by far. He literally played 90% of his hands preflop, and would call/raise (with no rhyme or reason) all the way to the river if he caught any piece of the flop, or any straight or flush draw. He was an older guy, had been at the table for about 10 hours, and given away at least 4 grand. Seemed friendly enough, obviously had a ton of money, and seemed to be enjoying himself despite the big hit he was taking.

He's in the CO, folded to him, he calls as usual, I raise on the button with 99, and the big blind calls.

Flop AK9. BB check, he bets, I call, big blind folds.

Turn is a 4 to complete the rainbow. He bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap.

River K. He checks, I bet, he check-raises, I'm about to 3-bet, and he holds up his cards to me, shows me his K2o, and says "Sorry, I got you on the river".

I'm like "Hold on a sec there buddy, I was about to 3-bet". Dealer says that the action is on me.

Is it unethical to throw in the raise anyway an see if he calls it? (I did, he called it, and I felt terrible about it for the rest of the session, though he didn't even seem to care.)

[Paluka]

I think what you did is fine, but it might be even worth more money to let the guy off easy. If you do him a favor and just call and say "i got ya this time" he is more likely to let you off cheap in the future. I've had plenty of guys keep me from losing bets when they hit miracles because they are just being nice fellas.

[DiamondDave]

You have the right to act on your hand when it's your turn, so you can 3-bet with a clear conscience.

That said, doing so may not be the best play if it will make your opponent leave the game or tighten up against you.

[Dynasty]

It was not unethical. But, it was damn stupid.

You said this guy has dropped 100 big bets at the table. Why are you worried about winning one more?

[UMTerp]

"You said this guy has dropped 100 big bets at the table. Why are you worried about winning one more?"

You like giving away free bets?

If I thought the guy would get mad or change up, I wouldn't have done it. He was really that clueless though. I also wouldn't have raised if I hadn't intended to originally, even if I had him beat (if I had KJ or something). If I had five minutes to think about it, I probably wouldn't have raised him, but it was a spur of the moment thing, and it kinda caught me off guard.

It kind of bothers me for some reason when people check big hands against each other because they like each other or whatever. I'm all for making friends and having a good time at the table, but I'm certianly not going to play soft.

[Ulysses]

Unethical? Not at all.

Dumb, though. This guy was trying to be a nice guy and save you a bet. That scenario will come up way more than the times you want to squeeze a bet from him.

I am a really nice guy to nice guys at the cardroom. I can't count how many times I've value bet the river, gotten raised, then asked "did you make a straight?" and sheepishly get shown the gutshot that got there. Gold.

[Mike Gallo]

Turn is a 4 to complete the rainbow. He bets, I raise, he 3-bets, I cap

Since when did the Taj change the rule to a cap heads up? When I played there last month we had no cap heads up.

See why you shouldnt play for a day straight?

Is it unethical to throw in the raise anyway an see if he calls it?

Why bother? You claim to have taken over 4k from him. Whats another $40?

[UMTerp]

Since when did the Taj change the rule to a cap heads up? When I played there last month we had no cap heads up.

I wrote that wrong. He called my 4-bet. You can still raise unlimited heads-up.

Speaking of this rule, I thought I was gonna have a chance to make a killing off of it one hand. I had TT in a 5-way hand, and the board was TTAAX. No other ace was out though. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Why bother? You claim to have taken over 4k from him. Whats another $40?

I said he lost $4K, not that it all went to me. I was up a couple hundred at the time, and ended up about $1K. $40 still matters to me.

[DcifrThs]

action on you, SUPERFISH hits a k and shows it to you. worst kicker, as you're about to 3bet.

let him have this one. call and say, i got you. he will NEVER forget that and you can easily save MUCH MUCH MORE than $40 in the future against him.

simply call and say, "i'm sorry buddy, but you're Ks aren't good. hate to do it but i gotta" and lay your hand face up on the table after calling. or say "sorry, man...but you're miracle card just miracled me even more." but i wouldn't 3 bet here.

you said he played all hands all draws all pieces of the flop. that means EVENTUALLY hes GOING to hit one of them against you. in fact, he's much more likely to hit them than somebody NOT playing every chance they get. wouldn't you like to know when to safely fold against this guy? couldn't you conceivably save more than $240 if it happens a bunch?

that should be the overriding motive, not that measly $40 you should leave on the table for him
-Barron

[risen]

I'm like to study ethics, and at the poker table your only ethical constraints are to play by the rules of the game at all times. I'm not going to take the line of some of the other posters here, it wasn't a stupid raise, and though with a little more thought it may not have been the best long term move, who is actually thinking that much between yawns at the tail end of a day long poker bender. If this guy is someone you intend on seeing again, I agree go ahead and give him a pass, his gratitude will end up being worth way more than $40 to you over the course of a session, but bleary eyed and against a field of randoms while on vacation, go ahead and get that money. That's dinner.

[Riverman]

Being social chair at the table routinely saves me river bets. I am always jawing away and chatting people up, and as a result they never get tricky with me. Like Ulysses, I just ask people what they have when they bet or raise- usually they will tell/show me.

Another quick point- this guy may be a terrible card player but I dont really like it when people imply that guys like this are complete idiots. I know a number of players who are consistent losers, know it, and come back because they dont care about the money and they like the social aspect of the game. Doing stuff like this kills their enjoyment of the game and may cause them never to come back. Furthermore, its a dick move (although not unethical).

[Mike Gallo]

Furthermore, its a dick move (although not unethical).

Quote of the thread /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

Being social chair at the table routinely saves me river bets. I am always jawing away and chatting people up, and as a result they never get tricky with me.

You would like to believe that. /images/graemlins/smirk.gif

[UMTerp]

Furthermore, its a dick move (although not unethical)

Hell, I think it was too. That's why I said I felt bad about it afterwards. I'm not sure I'd have done it if I played in the game regularly.

[andyfox]

Consensus seesm to be that it was not unethical (I agree) but not the smartest thing to do (I also agree). I think what may be boethering you is the fact that the guy was being a nice guy and you were trying to milk the extra bet out of him. We all try to milk extra bets, but when somebody is trying to be nice, it makes us uncomfortable. I think that's why you felt bad about it the rest of the evening.

[James282]

It's not a dick move at all! I have no clue what Riverman is talking about. Strickly in terms of long term profit, as others have pointed out, it was the wrong play. To think of it as "mean" or something is just retarded IMO.
-James

[snakehead]

playing for 28 hours isn't unethical, but it's kind of dumb.

[DocHollyday]

Hey UMT,

I know that feeling, it is the same I have, when I raise or check-raise a poker buddy. I just hate it, but looking at our grind, we all know, that good starting hands and flops don't fall from trees and we should try to extract as much as possible when we're lucky enough to catch some.

However, where I may hesitate to check-raise a good friend headsup, I don't see the slightest unethical grain of seed in your three-bet.

First, he doesn't seem to be a regular you do know well. Further he is doing a mistake by showing his hand before the action ended. I assure you, I will throw in another bet 100% of the time here (also if a friend dared to check-raise me! /images/graemlins/mad.gif) Furthermore he is donating anyways, so he won't mind another 40$. If you don't take it, he will give it to someone else. Simple and straight!

UMT, we play poker, leave the kindness and public welfare to the social workers. No dough, no show, that's my quote. And now, back to battle! /images/graemlins/cool.gif