HOF question for Andy and other baseball fans (Schilling)

[B-Man]

I got into a spirited debate with one of my friends a couple of weeks ago. The issue (driven by local sports radio) is whether Curt Schilling is a "future Hall of Famer," whatever that means.

IMO, the category of "future Hall of Famer" includes players who are locks for the Hall of Fame (like Clemens and Bonds), and also may include players who, if they continue at their historical pace, should someday be elected (this would include players like Pujols and Nomar).

Based on my very unscientific survey of listening to local sports radio, a lot of baseball fans in the Boston area seem to think Curt Schilling is a future Hall of Famer. I disagree. I think at present he's a great pitcher, and has been since 2001, but he is not close to being a Hall of Famer because he was nothing extraordinary prior to 2001. I think he needs 2-3 more great seasons, or 3-4 more good years, to have a shot. My friend, on the other hand, thinks he is a lock if he gets 200 wins.

Here are Schilling's career numbers coming into this season:

16 seasons, 163-117 (.582), 3.33 ERA (129 ERA+), 1.12 WHIP.
He's won more than 15 games 4 times, and more than 20 games twice (2001 and 2002). He's never led the league in ERA, and has only finished in the top 3 once (2001). He's never won the Cy Young or MVP, but his postseason numbers are dazzling (5-1, 1.66, NLCS MVP and WS MVP in 2001).

Notwithstanding the great postseason numbers, his numbers are good but not Hall of Fame-worthy. He's only had 2 great years, and only 2 more that could even be considered very good. Who ever made the Hall of Fame with only 2 great years? On top of that, he's going to be up for election just after or around the same time as Clemens, Pedro, Maddux, Randy Johnson and Glavine (the first 4 of which I consider locks, and Glavine has a good possibilitiy of getting in, too). Schilling's numbers just don't compare to any of those guys.

Comments?

P.S. If he leads the Red Sox to a championship, I might have to change my opinion.

[M2d]

If he can get to 200/3000 I think he got a shot. 220/3300 might make it a better shot, but he's 37 now.

[Boris]

[ QUOTE ]
P.S. If he leads the Red Sox to a championship, I might have to change my opinion.


[/ QUOTE ]

If the Red Sox win the world series every player on the team should be a lock for the Hall of Fame.

[Clarkmeister]

He gets a lot of bonus points for playing on some terrible Philly teams. Still, I agree that he's a highly debatable selection.

[bugstud]

I think he is, simply because win totals are bunk with the crap teams he played on. If he'd been on that 90's Braves staff he'd be a lock. If he does well for the Sox in the playoffs, he will probably get in regardless.

[Sooga]

[ QUOTE ]
Based on my very unscientific survey of listening to local sports radio, a lot of baseball fans in the Boston area seem to think Curt Schilling is a future Hall of Famer. I disagree. I think at present he's a great pitcher, and has been since 2001, but he is not close to being a Hall of Famer because he was nothing extraordinary prior to 2001. I think he needs 2-3 more great seasons, or 3-4 more good years, to have a shot. My friend, on the other hand, thinks he is a lock if he gets 200 wins.


[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm i don't get it. Wouldn't it take 2 or 3 more great years or 3 or 4 good years to get to 200 wins? That aside, he's been a great pitcher since 1997. As to his HOF candidacy... I'd say if he does get get 200+ wins and 3000+ K's, he's as good a shoo-in as anyone. But I must admit, the longer Bert Blyleven is not in the Hall, the less respect I have for it.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
he's been a great pitcher since 1997.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you change "great" to "good" then I would agree, but not otherwise. He's had 2 great years in the last 7 (2 in his entire career).

[ QUOTE ]
I'd say if he does get get 200+ wins and 3000+ K's, he's as good a shoo-in as anyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is that? There are a lot of pitchers with 200+ wins that aren't in the Hall of Fame. Schilling has a good ERA, but its not out-of-this world in a way which would make up for his relatively low (by Hall of Fame standards) win total.

Compare Schilling's numbers to Clemens, Maddux, Pedro and Randy Johnson. Do you still think he should be a lock? Those guys are all-time greats, and certainly are better than a lot of pitchers in the HOF, but Schilling doesn't even come close to them (he did in 2001 and 2002, and hopefully will this year, but over an extended period his numbers are not comparable).

I think if he has 2-3 great years or 3-4 good years then he has a shot, but I certainly don't think 200 wins should make anyone a shoo-in. (I think Pedro is a shoo-in with 170 wins, but that's because his other numbers are spectacular; Schilling's are not).

[Sooga]

Yes, I misspoke. I meant to say that with 200W and 3000K, he'd be as good a shoo-in as anyone else with those same numbers. Not anyone in general. I haven't looked at the names, but I'm pretty sure the list of 200W/3000K pitchers who are not in the hall is a pretty short one.

Also, if you look at the numbers, his '97-'98 numbers are really not far off from his '01-'02 numbers. His '01-'02 numbers have a few less walks, but other than that, they are very similar. The only difference, of course, is that he won 45 games in '01-'02 and 32 in '97-'98. But the numbers are terrific for all those years.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
I meant to say that with 200W and 3000K, he'd be as good a shoo-in as anyone else with those same numbers. Not anyone in general.

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, that I can agree with. It's just that I don't think 200 wins and 3,000 K's makes anyone a shoo-in, unless their other numbers are spectacular (like Pedro or Koufax). I also don't think strikeouts are a major consideration among voters; they are a secondary stat, not as important as wins or ERA.

[ QUOTE ]
I haven't looked at the names, but I'm pretty sure the list of 200W/3000K pitchers who are not in the hall is a pretty short one.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is a partial list of pitchers with more than 250 wins that are eligible but not in the HOF, along with their all-time rank in wins:

24. Tommy John 288
25. Bert Blyleven 287
29. Jim Kaat 283
T38 Jack Morris 254

Schilling needs about 100 more wins just to get into that neighborhood.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, if you look at the numbers, his '97-'98 numbers are really not far off from his '01-'02 numbers. His '01-'02 numbers have a few less walks, but other than that, they are very similar. The only difference, of course, is that he won 45 games in '01-'02 and 32 in '97-'98. But the numbers are terrific for all those years.

[/ QUOTE ]

Outside of wins and losses, there is not a huge difference, though he was 2nd in the league in ERA in 2001, 9th in '97 and '98. 2nd is outstanding, 9th is very good.

For example, here are the top-5 in ERA from 1997:

Martinez-MON 1.90
Maddux-ATL 2.20
Kile-HOU 2.57
Valdes-LAD 2.65
Brown-FLA 2.69

Schilling had a 2.97--very good, but 8 other NL starters were better that year.

[banditbdl]

[ QUOTE ]
25. Bert Blyleven 287
29. Jim Kaat 283
T38 Jack Morris 254


[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, all 3 of these guys spent significant time with the Twins, and all 3 aren't in the Hall, what's up with that?

[Sooga]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is a partial list of pitchers with more than 250 wins that are eligible but not in the HOF, along with their all-time rank in wins:

24. Tommy John 288
25. Bert Blyleven 287
29. Jim Kaat 283
T38 Jack Morris 254


[/ QUOTE ]

Again, as I said earlier, it is a travesty of the game that Blyleven is not in the hall. He never really put up any Pedro-type years, but he was excellent for a very, very long time. He has career numbers that most pitchers only dream about, and he did them while pitching for fairly mediocre teams. It's a damn shame he hasn't been voted in.

[Ed Miller]

Compare Schilling to Drysdale. Two more good years, and it will be very hard to say that Drysdale belongs in the hall, but Schilling doesn't.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

There' no such thing as a shoo-in when it comes to these things. Bert Blyleven isn't in and I thought Ryne Sandberg would be a shoo-in too.

Schilling has been a fine pitcher for many years, but hasn't really been "great" until he hit Arizona. To be perfectly honest, Kevin Appier in his hey-day was actually a better pitcher and so was/is Mike Mussina. Appier just had the unfortunate luck of pitching for some pretty lousy Royal teams and he declined as he aged. Mike Mussina was stuck pitching for some good/decent/downright bad Oriole teams, but is still going strong for the Yankees. Schilling has pitched better with age and I suppose if you add in two or three more solid years, we can start talking about the HOF.

BTW, I know he doesn't deserve to be in, but how awesome has Jamie Moyer been since 1996.

[andyfox]

I think the designation "future Hall of Famer" refers to one of two things: either a lock (that is, if the player's career ended today, would they be elected; Clemens and Bonds are certainly the best examples); or if their career proceeeds on its expected path to "normal" completion, they will most likely make the HOF (A Rod is probably the best example).

Schilling is neither. And he's 37. An educated guess would be that he wins another 60 games in his career; that would leave him with 227 and probably not in the HOF, unless he appears in a couple more World Series.

I love watching him pitch. He's a horse and a half. No BS, all ballplayer. I understand he credits Clemens with getting him onto the correct path and turning his career around.

[andyfox]

When Bill James wrote his book Whatever Happened to the Hall of Fame, he felt Drysdales didn't deserve to be in. Then, in his new Historical Abstract, he changed his mind.

Some guys have a certain charisma, usually derived from post-season success, that gets them in. Drysdale got in; Catfish Hunter got in. But guys with more wins, such as Blyleven and Jim Kaat, haven't.

[andyfox]

Maybe you give him bonus points, but the HOF usually rewards guys who played on good teams (see Catfish Hunter and Don Drysdale, as oppposed to Jim Kaat and Burt Blyleven).

[Chris Daddy Cool]

Kirby Puckett comes to mind.

[Jim Kuhn]

I don't think Schilling will make the HOF. I don't think it will be marginal.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
Hey, all 3 of these guys spent significant time with the Twins, and all 3 aren't in the Hall, what's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Bud Selig hates the twins, maybe there is a conspiracy theory.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
IMO, the category of "future Hall of Famer" includes players who are locks for the Hall of Fame (like Clemens and Bonds), and also may include players who, if they continue at their historical pace, should someday be elected (this would include players like Pujols and Nomar).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nomar? I wonder if you are a Boston fan. What historical pace is Nomar on? Pujols I agree with, what about Vladimir or A-rod?

[andyfox]

I'm a Yankee fan. Here's is Nomar's historical pace:

1997:
122 runs
209 hits
30 HR
98 RBI
.306

1998:
111 runs
195 hits
35 HR
122 RBI
.323

1999:
103 runs
190 hits
27 HR
104 RBI
.357

2000:
104 runs
197 hits
21 HR
96 RBI
.372

2001: Injured

2002:
101 runs
197 hits
24 HR
120 RBI
.310

2003:
120 runs
198 hits
28 HR
105 RBI
.301

Sure looks like a HOF pace to me. He's won two batting titles. Plus he's only 29.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Nomar has very quitely been astonishing. He isn't a lock yet, but definitely on pace to be a lock. Pujols isn't a lock either at this point.

Schiling is definitely not a lock at this point, I am not sure if he is even close as of right now.

I have two names I would like to see a debate about.

Edgar Martinez and Rafael Palmero

[andyfox]

My sense is Palmiero makes it (probably 1st ballot) because of the 500 home runs. I'm not sure about Edgar, I lean towards yes because of the high batting average and the batting titles. One more post-season, especially a World Series performance that's good, might tip the balance. We've had discussions about Edgar here before.

[Nick B.]

He is almost 31, bday in July. He is injured again this year. He isn't going to make it to 3000 hits, nor 500 hrs. He isn't great defensively. I don't think he is future HOFer.

[andyfox]

I actually forgot what year it is: I saw his birthdate in July 1973 and came up with that he's 29. Duh.

He'll need to continue his .300 ways for another 3-4 years, no doubt. I see no reason he can't or won't. [After all, he did hit .089 the last month of last year. /images/graemlins/crazy.gif] It was unreasonable to expect him to continue to hit .357 or .372, but .300 is not.

People won't consider Jeter's poor fielding range stats when it comes time to vote. They'll look at his hits, batting average, and post-season records.

What do you think about Alomar? Future HOFer? He's up to around 2500-2600 hits I think.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
He is almost 31, bday in July. He is injured again this year. He isn't going to make it to 3000 hits, nor 500 hrs. He isn't great defensively. I don't think he is future HOFer.

[/ QUOTE ]

No offense, but if you don't think Nomar is on pace to make the Hall of Fame, then I don't think you have much of a clue on the subject. I suggest you re-read Andy's post with his stats, then put them in the context of other shortstops. As for the 500 HRs/3000 hits criteria, Nomar is a shortstop, not a 1B or OF (even though he puts up OF numbers). I'm aware of two shortstops that have over 3,000 hits (3 if you count Robin Yount, but he played a lot of games at other positions), and none that have over 500 HRs (Ernie Banks played more games at 1B than SS). Those milestones are certainly not prerequisites to make the HOF as a SS.

If Nomar continues at his historic pace, he most certainly will make the Hall of Fame, and he'll probably be considered one of the 5 best shortstops of all-time (as will A-Rod).

[Nick B.]

I think Alomar will probably get in for his defense. He has 10 gold gloves? Not to mention a couple WS rings and lots of playoff appearances. His incident with the umpire won't help him though. But I sitll think he will make it.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
No offense, but if you don't think Nomar is on pace to make the Hall of Fame, then I don't think you have much of a clue on the subject. I suggest you re-read Andy's post with his stats, then put them in the context of other shortstops. As for the 500 HRs/3000 hits criteria, Nomar is a shortstop, not a 1B or OF (even though he puts up OF numbers). I'm aware of two shortstops that have over 3,000 hits (3 if you count Robin Yount, but he played a lot of games at other positions), and none that have over 500 HRs (Ernie Banks played more games at 1B than SS). Those milestones are certainly not prerequisites to make the HOF as a SS.

If Nomar continues at his historic pace, he most certainly will make the Hall of Fame, and he'll probably be considered one of the 5 best shortstops of all-time (as will A-Rod).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you are grossly overestimating Nomar's abilities. One of the 5 best? I don't think so. He has no gold gloves. He was on pace before his injury and since then, he hasn't been close to any historical pace. You are assuming that Nomar will play his entire career at SS, which I wouldn't be so sure about. He doesn't put up OF type numbers. His OPS the last two years of .880 and .869 put him right about 20th on the outfielder list, next to Preston Wilson and Bobby Abreu.

Anyways, I don't think he has enough offensive ability put him in the HOF by itself and his defense doesn't help him.

[Sooga]

You don't think A-Rod is already one of the best 5 shortstops of all time? I think even if he retired tomorrow he would be up there...

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
I think you are grossly overestimating Nomar's abilities. One of the 5 best? I don't think so. He has no gold gloves. He was on pace before his injury and since then, he hasn't been close to any historical pace. You are assuming that Nomar will play his entire career at SS, which I wouldn't be so sure about. He doesn't put up OF type numbers. His OPS the last two years of .880 and .869 put him right about 20th on the outfielder list, next to Preston Wilson and Bobby Abreu.

Anyways, I don't think he has enough offensive ability put him in the HOF by itself and his defense doesn't help him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not esimating or overestimating anything, I'm looking at the numbers which you seem to be ignoring.

It's nice to have opinions, but its even nicer when there is some factual basis for them. I just noticed the picture in your profile--what's the matter, are you jealous because Nomar is better than Jeter? I wouldn't be so insecure if I was you--Jeter's got all the rings, why do you care if Nomar is better?

Your opinion on this is ridiculous, but I can't really argue with you if you don't respond to facts with facts, but merely with opinions. Again, I direct you to Andy's post and check Nomar's numbers. If you don't think he's on pace for a HOF career, you don't have a clue.

P.S. I'm glad you brought up OPS. Nomar's career OPS is .925. The only shortstop ahead of him is A-Rod.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
You don't think A-Rod is already one of the best 5 shortstops of all time? I think even if he retired tomorrow he would be up there...

[/ QUOTE ]

No idea where that came from, I don't remember saying anything like that.

Assuming A-Rod moves back to shortstop when the Yankees have had enough of having an inferior defensive player at the most important position, he will go down as the greatest shortstop of all-time. If he stays at 3B, he may become the greatest 3B of all time.

If he retired right now, due to some freak injury or something like that, he would sail into the HOF. Would he be considered one of the top 5 SSs? He would by me, thats for sure. I'm sure many people would consider him #1 even with the short career.

[Sooga]

Oops, I didn't quote the original thread.... I was replying to when you said

"If Nomar continues at his historic pace, he most certainly will make the Hall of Fame, and he'll probably be considered one of the 5 best shortstops of all-time (as will A-Rod). "

I assumed that by using 'will' that you didn't think A-Rod was already up there.

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not esimating or overestimating anything, I'm looking at the numbers which you seem to be ignoring.

It's nice to have opinions, but its even nicer when there is some factual basis for them. I just noticed the picture in your profile--what's the matter, are you jealous because Nomar is better than Jeter? I wouldn't be so insecure if I was you--Jeter's got all the rings, why do you care if Nomar is better?

Your opinion on this is ridiculous, but I can't really argue with you if you don't respond to facts with facts, but merely with opinions. Again, I direct you to Andy's post and check Nomar's numbers. If you don't think he's on pace for a HOF career, you don't have a clue.

P.S. I'm glad you brought up OPS. Nomar's career OPS is .925. The only shortstop ahead of him is A-Rod.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, my picture doesn't have Jeter in it. I don't like the Yankees or the Red Sox. Ok, Fact, Nomar is almost 31 and has played only 6 full seasons (if you count the 3 he played 143, 140 and 135). Nomar has played in a hitter's ballpark his entire career. At 31 his peak years aren't ahead of him, especially for a shortstop. He had 20 errors last year and 25 the year before which ranked 4th worst in the MLB both years. I would be willing to wager that Nomar won't make the HOF. He isn't great enough.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
LOL, my picture doesn't have Jeter in it. I don't like the Yankees or the Red Sox.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your little picture looked like the Yankees; it's pretty small so it could be a number of teams. Since your location said NY, and since you have so many irrational opinions about Nomar, I figured you were a Yankee fan.

[ QUOTE ]
Fact, Nomar is almost 31 and has played only 6 full seasons (if you count the 3 he played 143, 140 and 135). Nomar has played in a hitter's ballpark his entire career. At 31 his peak years aren't ahead of him, especially for a shortstop.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is Nomar's 162-game average for his career:

120 runs, 215 hits, 47 doubles, 8 triples, 30 home runs, 117 RBI, 14 steals, .323 avg, .370 OBP, .555 slg.

No shortstop in the modern era comes close (except A-Rod).

As for the 6 full seasons, I guess maybe you don't understand what "pace" means. Nobody is saying he would make the HOF if he retired today; he needs to play a number of more years at a high level. If he does that, he will make the HOF.

As for defense, he has a lot of errors; part of that is because his range is very good. He also has a great arm. Bottom line, the errors will not be held against him if he continues to put up historic offensive numbers for a SS.

[ QUOTE ]
At 31 his peak years aren't ahead of him

[/ QUOTE ]

Tell that to Barry Bonds.

[ QUOTE ]
I would be willing to wager that Nomar won't make the HOF. He isn't great enough.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look, that's just dumb. He's on pace to be the second or 3rd best offensive shortstop of all time, and you don't think he is great enough? You are either ignorant, biased or both. I would take your bet in a heartbeat if I knew who you were and thought I would actually collect my winnings someday.

I'm done with this discussion. For our next debate, maybe we could discuss whether the toothfairy is real, and you can give me your opinions on why the toothfairy exists...

[Nick B.]

[ QUOTE ]
Here is Nomar's 162-game average for his career:

120 runs, 215 hits, 47 doubles, 8 triples, 30 home runs, 117 RBI, 14 steals, .323 avg, .370 OBP, .555 slg.

[/ QUOTE ]

For under 6 seasons. He will be lucky to break 100 games this season and next year he will turn 32 halfway through it. He will be able to play until he is 37 or 38 maybe. A key factor in getting into the HOF is longevity, and Nomar is not going to have it. Lets look at A-rods stats for 162 sgame seasons

Games-162, AB-634, Runs-128, Hits-194, Doubles-36, Triples-3, Homeruns-43, RBIs-124, Walks-71, SB-22, Average.307, On-base .381, Slugging-.578, OPS-.959 and 2 gold gloves.

Who's stats are more historic? Not to factor in the teams A-rod has played for. You keep throwing the word historic around Nomar when he really isn't close.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the 6 full seasons, I guess maybe you don't understand what "pace" means. Nobody is saying he would make the HOF if he retired today; he needs to play a number of more years at a high level. If he does that, he will make the HOF.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know what a pace is, but Nomar is already on the downslide of his career. His career is half over and he hasn't put up nearly enough numbers to make the HOF. He would need to play until his 40's, which won't happen as a shortstop.

[ QUOTE ]
As for defense, he has a lot of errors; part of that is because his range is very good. He also has a great arm. Bottom line, the errors will not be held against him if he continues to put up historic offensive numbers for a SS.

[/ QUOTE ]

His range isn't great at all. He was ranked 14th and 15th in zone rating the last two years.

You seem to be throwing the word historic around with Nomar like a typical Boston fan. He hasn't done anything historic at all. He isn't going to be in a exclusive club, (40-40, 50-50, 500 hr) or anything like that. His defense is average.

[ QUOTE ]
He's on pace to be the second or 3rd best offensive shortstop of all time

[/ QUOTE ]

No he isn't. Only people in Boston will think that. With all the hitting records that are being broken these days, what is he doing is not much better than the norm.

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
For under 6 seasons. He will be lucky to break 100 games this season and next year he will turn 32 halfway through it. He will be able to play until he is 37 or 38 maybe. A key factor in getting into the HOF is longevity, and Nomar is not going to have it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, we all know how many seasons he has played. The premise is that he is on pace for a HOF career. You need to look up what "on pace" means. I never said he was a lock for the HOF, I said he would make the HOF if he continues at his current pace. You are now starting a new argument--what will he do over the next 5-6 years, and when will his career will end. How do you know what he'll do for the next 5 years? How do you know he'll be done at 37? Answer: you don't. Anyway, I'm really not interested in debating these silly hypotheticals. All we know are what his numbers have been so far, and they have been oustanding.

[ QUOTE ]
Lets look at A-rods stats for 162 sgame seasons


[/ QUOTE ]

Why? Who said Nomar was as good as A-Rod? A-Rod is on pace to be the best SS ever. No other SS's numbers stack up to him. Or are you now arguing that to make the HOF, your numbers have to be as good as A-Rod?

[ QUOTE ]
Who's stats are more historic? Not to factor in the teams A-rod has played for. You keep throwing the word historic around Nomar when he really isn't close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nobody said Nomar was better than A-Rod. Nomar's number's are historic for a SS, though--he's on pace to be one of the best offensive SS's ever. You can talk about the new era of hitting, but find me another SS that has had a first 6 years like Nomar, other than A-Rod.

[ QUOTE ]
His career is half over and he hasn't put up nearly enough numbers to make the HOF. He would need to play until his 40's, which won't happen as a shortstop.

[/ QUOTE ]

1. How do you know when his career will end? 2. You need to check the stats of shortstops in the HOF. For some reason you think he needs 3,000 hits or 500 homeruns (as if he was an outfielder), which is ridiculous. Do you also think Pedro is not going to get in because he wont win 300 games?

[ QUOTE ]
No he isn't. Only people in Boston will think that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Please show me three shortstops who have better career numbers than what Nomar projects to put up, assuming he continues at his current pace (which was the entire basis of my statement). You can't pretend he's going to hit .240 next year or retire in 4 years. If he keeps up at his current pace, only A-Rod will be significantly better than Nomar. Ripken will have higher totals, but Nomar destroys him in per-season production. No other modern SS is in the ballpark.

Do you think Pete Rose is a better hitter than Tony Gwynn because Rose got more hits?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
People won't consider Jeter's poor fielding range stats when it comes time to vote.

[/ QUOTE ]

For some odd reason, people, especially NY fans, still think Jeter is a great defensive player. That's only perpetuated by the occassional diving stops and jump throws you see on ESPN. If he had better range, he wouldn't need to dive and if he had a better arm he wouldn't need to jump.

[ThaSaltCracka]

Jeter is god in NY and thats why they think that.


Can we end the debate on Nomar. He isn't a lock, he has a good chance to make it but he needs to have 3-4 more good years to have a chance. IMO the only SS who are locks right now are Jeter and A-Rod. I suppose we can argue Jeter all night long, but his rings speak for themselves.

I seriously want to discuss Edgar though. Does anyone think its possible that a DH can make it into the hall?

[B-Man]

[ QUOTE ]
Can we end the debate on Nomar. He isn't a lock, he has a good chance to make it but he needs to have 3-4 more good years to have a chance.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree.

[ QUOTE ]
IMO the only SS who are locks right now are Jeter and A-Rod.

[/ QUOTE ]

A-Rod is a lock. I guess because of the rings Jeter probably is, too, even though Nomar is a better player.

[ QUOTE ]
I seriously want to discuss Edgar though. Does anyone think its possible that a DH can make it into the hall?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he has a shot. I wish he had more home runs, then he would have a great shot. His avg, obp and slg are excellent, but his totals aren't that great (by HOF standards).

If I had to make a line, I would say it is 3-2 against him making it. I'm rooting for him.

[ThaSaltCracka]

[ QUOTE ]
A-Rod is a lock. I guess because of the rings Jeter probably is, too, even though Nomar is a better player.


[/ QUOTE ]
Jeter seems like the time of player who should be in the HOF, he uses as much talent as he has better than everyone else, he is such a gamer, which is another reason why jack Morris should be in as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I think he has a shot. I wish he had more home runs, then he would have a great shot. His avg, obp and slg are excellent, but his totals aren't that great (by HOF standards

[/ QUOTE ]
Career #'s for Edgar:
Avg .314 OBP .422 SLG .523 OPS .945!!!
I dunno, he has to be in there. I am seriously rooting for him, but then again I was at game 5 in 1995 when the M's beat the Yankees. Two of my baseball heros on the field. Edgar doubling down the line. Jr scoring from first for the win. That was so freakin awesome!!!

[Ed Miller]

I think Alomar will probably get in for his defense. He has 10 gold gloves? Not to mention a couple WS rings and lots of playoff appearances. His incident with the umpire won't help him though. But I sitll think he will make it.

Alomar is first ballot no problem.