KK Ace on the flop

Online 3/6.


I'm dealt KK in the BB. One poster checks and the button limps to me. I raise and both call.


*** FLOP *** : [ 4h 9s Ac ]


I bet, poster folds and button raises. I mucked.

Too weak?? Is this a raise or fold? I don't know anything about the opponent, but I think over the long haul in this situation I'm better off folding here. Yes a tricky opponent just won a pot he shouldn't, but I think more often than not he's got a weak A, (would have raised a big A) but won't fold to me.


COmments.

One thing I'm sure of is that you have to bet that flop. Knowing nothing about the player I'd probably agree with your fold since there's virtually no money in the pot. Be sure to fold quickly though so it looks like you don't have anything, worst thing you could do would be to toss them face up for sympathy(yes I know it's online but using the chat bar is pretty much the same thing).

A very common example of getting an overcard to your pocket pair and then got bet into or raised after your pre-flop raise. That dreaded A on your KK is really frustrating. Not knowing my opponent I would give in this time and fold to the possible Ace-any. But I will watch his moves and find what he's capable of in future rounds.

This fold is fine. Beware when there is a flush draw.


Now turn the situation around. Look at the effects of his raise:


1) You have something like KQs. You maybe have a 3-flush and 3-straight. You take one off and probably fold. He wins a little more without giving a free card. However he would win more on average if he allowed you to continue betting.


2) You have a big pocket pair less than Aces. You fold. He loses money he could have won by rope-a-doping you in for more bets with few outs.


3) You have a big Ace or AA. You reraise him and bet it down. He loses more money than he should, and is behind with few outs.


Once the hand becomes heads-up his flop raise is bad poker.

Your argument is the one reason I think maybe I shouldn't have folded. If he's a good player he knows all that and wouldn't raise with an A. Thus, perhaps he has QQ, JJ, T9 etc and maybe I should have raised him back. All comes down to knowing the player I guess.

I think that most aces will raise here. The main reason being that they want to find out if you have a bigger A. If you call they can take a free card or check it down on the river.


Say the button has an A. Even knowing where 2 of the A's are, there is still a better chance for David to have AK or AQ here than KK, QQ. If he would also raise with JJ it becomes close. I'd rather bet and have a KK or QQ fold than have David call with a big A.


In a tighter game, David might be able to 3-bet and get a small A to drop on the turn, but in a typical on-line 3-6 I agree with his fold.


Regards,


Paul Talbot

I think that most aces will raise here. The main reason being that they want to find out if you have a bigger A.


I agree. I never said they wouldn't. I just pointed out some reasons why it wouldn't always be the best move. Raising for information is almost always ill-advised.

If he's a good player he knows all that and wouldn't raise with an A.


There are not very many players who think anything other than, "I have top pair, gotta raise it."

The problem I have at low limit is when I do bet the flop w/ KK, I get a caller or two, and have no idea if they hold an Ace or just junk like a medium pair.


Betting the turn and river is painful against calling stations who might be holding A2. But then if I check the turn, it's too obvious... someone bets and I fold.


How do you play this one?

Unless you are against a very tricky player I think you have to fold here. It doesn't matter if he has A2 or AK, you are down to 2 outs. If he has QQ or JJ and he is raising you, God bless him. It takes balls to raise on an ace high flop when you have no draws and no ace. Of course you could call this stupidity, too, but heads up I'd call it balls. I think (especially at these limits) you will find if you play it to the end that 9 times out of 10 he has the ace, and he isn't laying it down no matter how bad the kicker is. This is a frustrating situation though. Now you know why the nickname for KK is ace magnets. If he doesn't have the ace and you call he may check behind you on the turn, but I wouldn't count on this. You certainly can't bet. So you couldn't win much anyway. Better to just fold your tent and go home.

If there are no draws available I would not bet the turn. If they both check I would call one river bet.


If there are draws, and one of the players frequently "peels one off" on the flop, then I might bet again.

onother solution to this hand that I would like coments on is to ceck the flop with the pocket kings. now most player will do one of two things take a free card showing you he dosent have the ace or more likely bet either representing he has the ace or bet becouse he actually does have the ace. when he bets you raise him if he rerases you could be sure he has the ace (and confidently fold) if he didnt have the ace he would probably fold or just call if he had it with a weak kicker. this would give you a much better idea of what he holds and you invested 2 sb. then you see the turn card and hopefully improved your had (though you dont have many outs) check the turn if he bets fold, hell rember your ceck raise and wouldnt bet without an ace. By doing this I beleve you have defined his hand and can decide if your beat or not and you have only invested two sb exclude the preflop bets. Many players do not like to or cant throw away a big pocket pair theyll just check call the eniter way just to see what the oppent actually held and end up enveting 1 sb and 2bb. In short the ceck raise him when the beting is still cheap helps you determine his hand isntead of check calling the entire way or and posibly loosing twice that of your check raise or just folding and woundering if you were actually beaten or bluffed out of your pot. any comments on this play whould be apreciated