The worst part of my game. Part 2

God does my river play suck. I mean its really bad. It is the one street I still consistantly make the wrong decision on. I make my share of mistakes elsewhere of course, but they are neither as often nor as glaring as those I make on the river. Two examples:


I raise two limpers with QQ. The BB and limpers call. Flop: Jc6s3d


Check. Check. Check. I bet. Call. Call. Call.


Turn: Td (Jc6s3d) 3 Checks, I bet, Two calls.


River: 9d Checked to me. I CHECKED!!!!!! God that sucked.


First guy flips up QJo and the second guy mucks. I take down a nice pot but one that is a full bet smaller than it should have been.


How about this:


I have Ac7c. Two EP limpers. I call. Both blinds play. Flop Tc7d3h. Check. Bet. I raise and get it head up.


Turn: 6c Checked to me and I take the free card.

That play may be debatable but it is brilliant compared to my river play.


River: Jh He bets and yep, I call. Wow. Worst play I've made in a while. He shows JT, two pair. I weep a single tear. Fuckin' terrible.


So, I ask for any and all advice on river play. In theory I understand that I should bet only when I will have the best hand 55%. And I do pretty well at not betting when I have zero positive EV. I have read TOP section on river play a dozen times or so, but can someone help me translate from Skalanskese to English.


Thanks for your help.


OneTime

It sounds like you're trying to get too cold and technical. You are playing a game, you know. Eventually you should have some feel for how to play the river to go along with all of the knowledge.

I have Ac7c. Two EP limpers. I call. Both blinds play. Flop Tc7d3h. Check. Bet. I raise and get it head up.


Turn: 6c Checked to me and I take the free card.

That play may be debatable but it is brilliant compared to my river play.


River: Jh He bets and yep, I call. Wow. Worst play I've made in a while. He shows JT, two pair. I weep a single tear. Fuckin' terrible.


Your river call is fine. When you check behind on the turn you are increasing the chances that the player will bluff by showing weakness(inducing a bluff), and you must call.

On the first hand, your only possible mistake is not betting out on the river. I guess the flush river card scared you. Now this is were knowing your opponents (sic) comes in. There was a flush draw on the flop which your opponents could possibly drawing for. However, the turn and river cards made a flush on the opposite direction - runner-runner. Unless your opponents are fond of chasing a one-flush board especially if they have AXs (I know quite a few of them), a bet here IMO, is mandatory. But no big error, I don't think.


2nd hand. I would have semi-bluff on the turn with 11 outs. You could have had a free showdown on the river but fold to a river bet.

I don't see anything wrong with either play honestly.


In hand one, the river card made a flush and a straight possible, not to mention 2 pair. You had been betting all the way, perfect time for a check raise. I think the call was fine.


2nd hand your river call is consistant with the turn check. If you check to me on the turn like that I'm betting the river with anything. If you know he wouldn't have bet the flop with less than top pair, then it's different.

I happen to have a fondness for cold and technical things thank you. My first real hobby was chess. And it is the very reason I find this game so appealing. Yes it is a game, but for me it can only be satisfying if I win. Well, I've reached the point where I do win. The only way to be satisfied now is win more.


And as for "eventually": I've been playing two years. I do not believe that I will magically develope better judgement by just playing a lot more hours. (Go to your favorite low limit game if you need proof of this.) I need to work at it. I guess what I'm looking for is tips and observations others have made that may push me in the right direction. A list of factors one may want to consider on the river, say.

On the first hand I don't think its even close. I had to bet. There are a ton of worse hands that would call me. I may collect two bets. Plus I can fold easily to a raise.


On the second hand: OF COURSE HE HAD TOP PAIR!!! When is the last time you bet a weak middle pair with less than an ace kicker (acting early) into a multi-way pot? I know very bad players who won't even do this in low limit because they know they will get called down. When he checked to me on the turn his hand shouted "top pair weak kicker". I took the free card (which I now believe was correct as he would have surely called with any top pair). But I missed. I should have shrugged and folded.

What I'm trying to say but may have failed to get across is very similar to what you might find in chess.


It's like being the player who has memorized his openings but doesn't know what to do if an opponent deviates from the known lines on move 13.


Or like the player who has read part of his Basic Chess Endings and knows all the Rook vs. Bishop + Pawn endings but then screws up because it's Rook vs. Knight + 2 Pawns and he didn't read that part.


Or like in poker the percentage player who can see that he has pot odds to call a bet and so he calls, but never considered that raising might be the better play.


So of course it's important and good to know the technical aspects of the game. But I think a player can get caught up in this while playing and so end up making the wrong decisions.


So I don't mean to say that you will get better and then know what to do. I mean to say don't get too caught up in the technical aspects over the table because there may be too much to think about and it will cloud your judgment. I think it's one of those things that you're supposed to be thinking about away from the table so that when you get to the table, you know by feel what to do next time.


The main factor I would be thinking of in the two examples you gave is what I think of the play of my opponents. In your first example it's hard for me to think of a lineup against which I wouldn't bet the river and call a checkraise. In your second example it's very player dependent and difficult to answer.