QQ ugly turn card

[anatta]

20-40.

I open raise QQ UTG, loose player (call him "he") three-bets me from MP. He cold called my possible steal raise from the button with AQ earlier. I suspect he has JJ-AA or AK, possible TT not that likely though. Calling station idiot button cold-calls. I cap.


Flop Jd 4c 4d. I bet, call, call.



Turn A of some suit, not diamonds, but still ugly.

I check, intending on folding. He checks?? Button bets, Button could have any pair or draw. I raise. Both players call. River is a blank. I bet, both call. I lose, he had AK, button had 88.

He checked the turn, me confused, so me raised turn just wanting he to fold (Even if I "want him to call", I didn't, just go away) or maybe he folds an ace, he he he, I also I make button pay more too, bad play?? Check-fold turn if "he" did bet turn?

[mike l.]

there's not much to say about this hand except that i think you played it well and made an especially good value bet on the river.

[Steve Giufre]

The turn looks bad and the river looks worse. I can understand the turn play only if you have a good read on the button and feel that he is betting a weak hand or a draw. If you really feel he is, and you think that by raising you may be able to get the player in the middle off of a beter hand than yours, then OK. But I think the 3 bettor is going to call with al hands that beat you (all hands that include an ace, and fold all hands that you are ahead of, which is equally bad.) So I think the raise is counterproductive. On the river, what hand can you put MP on that you can beat? He called two bets cold on the turn, he has AK minimum. You can't fold a better hand, and you certainly wont be called by a worse one.

[mike l.]

"I think the 3 bettor is going to call with al hands that beat you"

nah theyre a bunch of really dumb calling stations down here (im assuming the hand was down here). just look at the freak w/ his 88 he cant let go of. it'd be no surprise to me to see anatta get paid off by two worse hands here. that's why i said i love the river bet. nobody lays a pair down ever, so every bet is in essence a value bet, there's really no such thing as a bluff except in very special weird scenarios that pop up every once in a blue moon.

[DcifrThs]

Mike L.

would you ever bet the turn and fold to a raise? i think the hand was well played given the reads but i keep having a nagging voice tell me to bet the turn and fold to a raise. it looks like you can have AK here so a raise will most likely come from a man who hit that ace or slowplayed his hand. either one i'd like to save some bets here if i can since that ace could have hit either one of em.

so what say you, good sir?
-Barron

[nykenny]

[ QUOTE ]
"I think the 3 bettor is going to call with al hands that beat you"

nah theyre a bunch of really dumb calling stations down here (im assuming the hand was down here). just look at the freak w/ his 88 he cant let go of. it'd be no surprise to me to see anatta get paid off by two worse hands here. that's why i said i love the river bet. nobody lays a pair down ever, so every bet is in essence a value bet, there's really no such thing as a bluff except in very special weird scenarios that pop up every once in a blue moon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Mike,

while i agree with you that the turn C/R was a good play (change of plan after 3bettor didn't bet), the river bet was probably not one of my favorite.

i'd be more inclined to check after i raised the turn and still get called by both places. not speaking out of the results.

Kenny

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
i'd be more inclined to check after i raised the turn and still get called by both places. not speaking out of the results.

[/ QUOTE ]

i know this isn't EXACTLy the type of situation but this is a thought ihad. i think the bet is good because he shouldn't fear a raise given the action and he's going to call anyway. lesser hands may not bet here but will call. unfortunately the c-r on the turn probably did tighten up the calling requirements a bit and therefore takes some value away from the bet. but since you're planning on calling anyway, and the previous action protects you from a raise by anything less than solid 2pair/set/better then a bet is a great spot to get value without a fear of a raise.

what do you think?
-Barron

[DcifrThs]

PS- this is an extension of David's "betting your own underdog hand to get value" concept.

you are certainly an underdog if you get called here but there are hands out there that will call a bet if you bet that you beat but wont' bet if you check.
-Barron

[elysium]

hi anatta
good turn check. on the river though, betting out is pointless. you won't fold out any hand that beats yours, and a busted draw that may have taken a shot at you had you corectly checked on the river, now will fold costing you a bet you could have picked up. initially, on this complex turn, i thought you had a handle on it, but no. you don't know what you're doing anatta.

[The Bear]

[ QUOTE ]
while i agree with you that the turn C/R was a good play (change of plan after 3bettor didn't bet), the river bet was probably not one of my favorite.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? This doesn't make any sense. Given the range of hands that "he" could have, as described in the post, CR'ing the turn is terrible. He will NEVER fold an ace, and he might fold JJ or TT, which he might have called with for one bet (which would be great for you). The only time that this play is okay is if he has exactly KK and folds it.

I think the turn play is awful. I challenge someone to convince me otherwise.

[Gamblor]

MP called two cold on that turn card and you bet into him on the river?

Unless he's the moron of all morons (which I don't discount given his turn action) I think you have to check and fold the river.

[anatta]

Thank you my brothers for the good feedback. "He" confused me with his turn check, I thought maybe KK or TT and I raised the idiot who really could have any pair or draw like I said.

Many said bad river bet, but I had so much momentum to back off at that point would have given me whiplash, so I bet since. I was so confused by AK's play that I couldn't see checking and folding, so I bet the river, knowing that button was an idiot (at poker, not to be too mean) and I would ("I would" not you, I was confused remember, big pot, one bet, confusion, makes me call) have to call a bet anyways.

My turn check intending on folding which felt wimpy...I think is correct even in this big pot since the range of hands that he would three bet with preflop was so limited.

[anatta]

mikel, I am coming out of the basement soon. Much tennis this Summer, wife is away in Romania (the motherland) soon so the only "action" for me is on the poker table. Unless I go to Tijuana...nah...I just use the $20 to post my blind.