Incorrect flush draw vs. Correct flush draw

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I was at the cardroom last night and decided to play 2/4 with my friend who's said he's been doing well in these limits and asked me to come sit down with him.

These 2 hands happened about 15 minutes after each other.

Hand 1:
My friend is the SB and has A /images/graemlins/heart.gif6 /images/graemlins/heart.gif There's 5 callers. He completes. BB checks. The flop makes him a 4 flush. My friend checks. The BB bets and then my friend shows me his cards and my eyes light up. Everybody calls and my friend... calls! I couldn't help but shake my head. The then turn comes out a heart and he bets and eventually wins a "nice" pot.

Immediatelly after the hand was over I told him he should have won a lot more money. How? By checkraising the flop. But I don't even have a hand yet! /images/graemlins/confused.gif

Hand 2:
This hand came up not too long later. This time I'm in the BB with K /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif Some limpers. A raise. Coldcalls all the way around. SB folds. I call. The limpers call. 7 to the flop. The flop comes out with 2 spades. I show my friend my cards and whispered "I'm going to show you how to play a flush draw." Checked to the preflop raiser who bets. Everybody calls. I raise. The people inbetween call. The bettor 3bets. Called all the way around and I cap, called all the way around. Turn comes out a blank and I check call. River comes out a blank and I check fold.

Then my friend calls me the worst player he's ever seen. I shrug and say "I played that hand perfectly. Just didn't work out."

Respond: "That's why you dont bet your draws."

That's why I won more money than him last night. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[B Dids]

I'll bet a draw- but I sure don't know about capping with one.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I'm sorry to say that you've probably been incorrectly playing some flush draws.

[StellarWind]

[ QUOTE ]
I'll bet a draw- but I sure don't know about capping with one.

[/ QUOTE ]
As long as you are getting 2+ callers and not knocking people out you are making money. If people think you're a crazy cowboy that's so much the better.

Sometimes the other raiser has a better flush draw. Usually that's just too bad but sometimes you can spot the danger in time to ease up on the raises.

[blackaces13]

I only play my flush draws the way you did if they are to the nuts. With a K high flush draw I'd probably bet out and call. If I had the A then I CR and cap. Is this too weak?

My reasoning is because now if the turn is a spade I actually have to "worry" about a 4th spade. Also, sometimes there will be an A high flush draw out against you so the 2 callers rule needs to be altered to maybe 3 callers.

I'm not sure about this at all. Should K high 4 flushes be played as strongly on the flop as A high draws?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

[ QUOTE ]
only play my flush draws the way you did if they are to the nuts. With a K high flush draw I'd probably bet out and call. If I had the A then I CR and cap. Is this too weak?


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, it is too weak. Your strategy is the perfect way to minimize the value of your draw. Just think of what you're holding and the likelyhood of someone out there with Ax of that suit. Will you occassionally run into Ax and lose that monster pot? Yes. Will your QQ ocassionally run into KK or AA? Yes, but that doesn't make it incorrect to 3bet it preflop.

[ QUOTE ]
My reasoning is because now if the turn is a spade I actually have to "worry" about a 4th spade. Also, sometimes there will be an A high flush draw out against you so the 2 callers rule needs to be altered to maybe 3 callers.


[/ QUOTE ]

Suppose you flopped a made flush with 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif6 /images/graemlins/spade.gif in your hand. Do you not raise on the flop because if another spade comes you might have to throw your hand away? Of course not. BTW, in my example there wasn't 2 or 3 callers. There were 6.

[blackaces13]

Is there EVER a time on the flop where you play a K high flush draw differently than you do a nut-flush draw?

And also, what does it take to make you slow down with the K high flush after you make it on the turn or the river? Is it an auto-cap on the street where you hit it on an unpaired board?

I ask this because I don't know not because I disagree.

[Chris Daddy Cool]

I can't think of a time where I didn't play a K high draw like the nuts, unless the flop was paired. When I hit my flush on the turn and am bet into its an auto-raise. Depending on my notes of a player, whether or not he would 3bet without the nuts, I'm usually capping. If he bets into me again on the river, I'm probably calling down. I don't know if thats helpful or not. What do you guys do?

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
Is there EVER a time on the flop where you play a K high flush draw differently than you do a nut-flush draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

If a 2+2er is at your table and you think they're pumping the nut flush draw.

[sfer]

If it's profitable for 1 bet with 4 callers why does it become unprofitable for more bets?

[B Dids]

I want to know what the board is like before I'm making a hard and fast rule. Why is the pot being 3 bet in the first place? If the board is paired, or my reads tell me that my King may not be good.

I understand your point and I think it's a good one. It's something I'll probably change in my game.

[sfer]

[ QUOTE ]
I want to know what the board is like before I'm making a hard and fast rule. Why is the pot being 3 bet in the first place? If the board is paired, or my reads tell me that my King may not be good.

[/ QUOTE ]

You make a good point too Dids. On an unpaired board with several callers and the nut-flush draw 3-betting is easy. If the board is paired or if you're going to war with a TAG who limped in and you don't have the nut draw then you've got some thinking to do.

[BusterStacks]

How do you know when it is correct to start the betting with a flush draw and when to check raise?

[bmedwar]

One question concerning raising (or check-raising) a flush draw, do you need to consider the chance that the orignial bettor will re-raise? My guess is that you welcome this bet, b/c you have the pot odds to call it.

[StellarWind]

One consideration with flush draws is that if you push too hard you may knock people out who are drawing dead if you eventually make your flush.

Thus you are SB 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 7 /images/graemlins/spade.gif and the board is Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif J /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players). Bet-call-call-raise - ?. I would probably just call because I want overcalls, not folds.

I might play the same way with A /images/graemlins/spade.gif 8 /images/graemlins/spade.gif or 4 /images/graemlins/spade.gif 3 /images/graemlins/spade.gif (a pair), but the case for raising is stronger. If I do get heads up against the button I may win without making my flush. If he has a flush or straight draw I probably have the best hand and will win if no one improves. If he does have a pair, my ace or little pair gives me extra outs that might be worthless in a 4-handed pot.

Once in a while you can sense that a better flush draw is pumping the pot. In *close* cases I will heed this warning and avoid reraising with a low draw.