65s in a 3-6 Game

Hello again, crew....Been kinda busy the past month and not much time for poker, but played a little $3-6 last night and wanted to post this hand for discussion.


I am on the button with the 6s5s. Game is very loose, and a fair amount of pre-flop raising, especially from one guy at the other end who was steaming through his fourth rack in under two hours. Several callers around to the cutoff seat, including Tilt Boy who had limped in this time. Cutoff raises.


Now, I have seen this guy raise in the past half hour with JJ and AQo,,, so I am not expecting total trash from him. I can see that this will be a big pot, and I don't mind playing 65s in this position, so I call. In fact, I was thinking about raising myself but when the raise came to my right, I only called. Seven of us take the flop of Ac-6d-2s.


Now a little background first before I go on. On the previous lap when I was on the button with AsQs, the same guy raised with his AQo, and laid it down to a nice turn checkraise by Tilt Boy, who ALSO had AQo, when the board got a little scary on the turn, and Tilt Boy and I ended up splitting a decent pot. My point is that I have seen that this kid is capable of laying a hand down. OK, on with the narrative.


Everyone checks to the cutoff raiser, and he bets out. Your play. Now, at this point, I am certainly far from sure that I am ahead, but on the theory that I want to give myself the best chance to win this now sizable pot, I figure that if I am in to this point, no point limping. I raised, partly to see if I can thin the herd, and partly to see if I can perhaps lay the groundwork for making my RHO lay down a better hand, such as QQ , for example. Any quibbles with this decision?


Much to my surprise, two of the early limpers cold called my check-raise, including Tilt Boy, but he could have anything! Now , the preflop raiser 3-bets! Ugh! Another decision to make. I am starting at this point to regret getting involved, but you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs, right?


I know at this point I am drawing dead to AA, but I still have outs to a big Ace. For the additional $3, I call to see if I can spike a 6, 5, 4, 3, or a spade to give me some reason to carry on. Damn, why did I call this raise? LOL


Turn card is a brick, an offsuit 8. Check, check, and the raiser bets again. Time to dump?, or is there enough of a chance that spiking a river 6 or 5 might be good if it hits? I called, and expect to field some flames about that decision too, but why else post if you can't stand some heat!


One of the limpers also calls,,,, river is a Q,, the guy bets again, I now fold,,,$21 poorer for the experience. Sigh. Turns out he had AA, but that's not the point.


I had some discussion over a beer later with a couple of players, and one guy said he would dump without hesitation to the preflop raise, and the other guy said he would have played the hand exactly the same way. I agreed to post the hand on the Forum to elicit some other comments. Flame away!

I dump this hand without a second thought. Having gone through this experience, would you try it again? Also, what of Tilt Boy? I would argue that cold-calling with 6-5 suited is tilt. You know deep down that it's a bad play, but you do it anyway. One last question: What's your hourly rate and how long is it going to take you to recoup those 3.5 big bets? At my current rate it'll take me 96 minutes (that's reason enough for me to dump this cheese).

Preflop call is fine.

Flop raise is a mistake. I know what you're thinking, you're trying to represent an ace and hope the CO folds an underpair. But even if he did have an underpair, SOMEONE has an ace and they are going nowhere. And now you screwed yourself, because you made the pot too big to fold. Don't try this move in multiway pots, it won't work. Just call unless you fear a checkraise, and fold on the turn if you dont improve.


Turn call is routine as you're getting at least 14:1 on your 9.2:1 5-outer - you can maybe bump that up a bit because of the possibility of drawing dead to AA. You got yourself in this mess.

was calling a raise with a piece of cheese.

Secondly,U compounded your error by obtaining a small piece of the cheese on the flop --so U found a "reason" to continue to play.

Your final outcome was devastating because of your initial error.

Happy pokmering,

Sitting Bull

This is a classic case of searching the board for any reason to call. You should be doing the opposite -- Look for a reason to fold. There are LOTS of reasons to fold and very, very few reasons to call.


You're behind and you know it -- Fold.

You get 3-bet on the flop -- Fold.

You're bet into on the Turn -- Fold.

You're bet into on the River -- Fold.

You're in position to see someone has a good hand preflop and you don't -- Fold.

The pot's big -- Call (hell, you made it big)

You might be ahead (ya right) -- Fold


I'd call the flop, since I KNOW a six *and* an Ace on the flop is a 1-way ticket to the muck.

Well, rip,, it's gonna take me about the same hour and a half to recoup.....I didn't say I was entirely proud of the way that the hand turned out!


But I'm also not afraid to stick my messes up on here for some solid critical analysis, and from the looks of the posts so far, not much agreement from anyone about how I played this. And that's fine. If I was worried about getting ripped, I would only post the successes.


Thanks for the input,,, some very solid points from everyone.

Yup,


I've made my share of questionable plays. I usually puss out on the river and fail to bet for value (and it has cost me more than $21). Just one more thing to work on. I usually don't sugar-coat my responses, so feel free to pound me when I post a CF of my own. Hopefully I'll get out and play soon, I just hope my mistakes don't cost me too much. My opponents are really good about extracting the minimum from me, so it looks promising.

I disagree with everyone who responded. They're responses were all terrible. Your only mistake is that you called on the turn.


ripdog says: I dump this hand without a second thought.


Nonsense. A hand like AT should be dumped. 65s is one of the few hands in that's probably still drawing live after someone's made a legit raise.


coz says: Flop raise is a mistake...Don't try this move in multiway pots.


If you don't raise with this on the flop in a multiway pot, then you have to fold. You just can't be the first caller. This would have been a terrible mistake.


Sitting Bull says: Your final outcome was devastating because of your initial error.


But your final outcome wasn't devastating and your only error was calling the turn. Your final outcome is devastating if you hit your 6 on the turn and give excess action. I always think that if you lose more than 2 bets from the turn onwards with the worst of it then the result was 'devastating'.


mkpoker says:

You're behind and you know it -- Fold.

You get 3-bet on the flop -- Fold.


You're *always* behind when you call with 65s before the flop. It's the size of the pot, the number of people drawing slim to dead, your payoff, etc. that make you want to call there. I'd say similar things about the bet on the flop.


And I myself am claiming you should have dumped it on the turn. Why? You're probably drawing dead after you get 3-bet on the turn. Even if you hit another 6 on the turn it's crying call time.

Game is loose/aggressive. PF cold-calling 2 on the button with small suited connectors in a multi-way pot is ok. You got a very small piece of the flop with no kicker and then the PF raiser who from your description is a decent player, leads out on a A high board, I think folding here is the best play. It looks like your only clean out is a 6 because in a multi-way pot like this, chances are somebody already has an ace and any card on the turn can give him 2 pairs -your 5 included. So, it is a 22-1 shot where the pot is only giving you 8-1.


So you decided to probe further and raised. Got 2 cold callers and got 3-betted by the original raiser. Time to fold and wait for next deal.

You said that Dunc's only mistake is calling the turn which means you agree with his raising the flop and calling a re-raise from the pre-flop raiser, correct?


From Dunc's description, the game is loose and aggressive with a pre-flop raise coming from a decent player. You are on the button with small suited connectors and called 2 in a multi-way pot which is fine. The flop gave you a cheesy 2nd pair, no kicker on an ace-high board. Early limpers checked to original raiser who bets. You said to yourself: "We'll, let me represent that I can beat an ace and raise..... Ooops! 2 cold callers and cutoff raised again! I think I should call." ???? What are you hoping for on the turn? A 6 which do not give you sufficient pot odds? A 5 could be tainted. What now?

This is what you wrote:

Ooops! 2 cold callers and cutoff raised again! I think I should call." ???? What are you hoping for on the turn? A 6 which do not give you sufficient pot odds? A 5 could be tainted. What now?


This is what I wrote:

And I myself am claiming you should have dumped it on the turn. Why? You're probably drawing dead after you get 3-bet on the turn. Even if you hit another 6 on the turn it's crying call time.


It should have read that "You're probably drawing dead after you get 3-bet on the flop". But after 7 people see the flop for 2 small bets each, you're in on the flop for 2 small bets, and there are 3 others in on the flop for 3 small bets I count that you're getting 25:1 to call the 3-bet on the flop to try to spike a 6. That's enough overlay to cover all the times that you're drawing dead.

Dunc,


I've enjoyed your posts for a long time. I think this one is a good one and not a no-brainer.


BTF, I'm fine with this button call. You shouldn't be sharing outs with anyone, etc. This is much better call than with AQo.


I like your thinking with the flop raise. However, I think that this raise is also for information. The information you get is that there are a bunch of people not afraid of two-pair. I think that the callers bother more than the re-raise. Once you see people react to your raise, you are in check/call mode even if you hit a 6, right? Since you can't bet/raise, even if you hit, I think you have to muck. There aren't enough hands that I can put people on that I can draw out on to call.


You were in the game, so if you think you are getting a reasonable overlay on the 2-outer I'm OK with it.


I like Aaron's post, and I see where he is coming from. However, I always hate myself when I raise to get information and then call when someone tells me I am beat.


Do the game conditions make me wrong?


-Doug

Aaron,


Don's disagreement and so is mine is the button's flop raise after CO bets which gives him a 15-2 shot in a 22-1 odds to snag a set. Now, let's say that the two limpers folded but CO still re-raises. If button calls he is only getting 18-1. Even with the two limpers calling it would have been 22-1. Even money at best. Folding to CO's bet on the flop, IMO is still the best play.

I think this is a good example where small suited connectors are very marginal in loose/aggressive game where one tends to get involved in an expensive drawing situation.

You're forgetting implied odds and the possibility that the raiser has a hand like QQ which Dunc may manage to bet out of the hand.


So say the limpers fold and cutoff reraises and Dunc is getting only 18-1 to call the 3rd bet. You're right, now he heads into marginality by calling the 3rd bet although I would usually still do so because of the implied odds. But that didn't happen. And so Dunc's particular situation was not marginal and he should call the 3rd bet.

This very same hand would have happened at a loose-passive game. Someone with Aces who flopped a set of Aces--the nuts--gives action. Our hero makes a position play. Everyone else just checks and calls the whole way through.


So I don't think this is a very good example of why a suited connector doesn't play well in a loose aggressive game.

His implied odds are for s**t considering he is heads up. At best he can pop a raise for 2-1 action -- not that great.


He should dump this on the flop. I have no problem with calling preflop (which I stated in my *bad* post). This is a horrible hand to get tricky with at these limits with that kind of action on that kind of board. Muck on the flop.

I just don't agree with your post that once the pot gets large that you should be looking for reasons to fold. That sort of advice will cost a lot of money in a loose game.


You're right, heads-up the implied odds are not great and so it's a marginal call heads-up. But that's not what happened to Dunc.


What's more, who says that the most likely possibility is that the hand will get heads-up and cutoff will 3-bet? That's the nightmare situation and is one of the more unlikely situations to occur. What usually happens in a low-limit game is that Dunc may get it heads-up or 3-ways and then the turn will be checked to Dunc.

5-6 suited is defently a drawing hand for a straight or a weak flush and in late posiiton with many callers you are getting correct pot odds to see the flop but if raised pre flop you must ensure that you still are going to get the same odds (how many people will the raise push out)raiseing it yourself (like you considered) should never even be a question. it will just push more people out and lower you pot odds. but if the odds are there go ahead and see the flop once you see the flop its got to fit your hand with either the straight or a open ended draw or fold the hand.