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View Full Version : 2 Completely different situations

DoctorDrew
05-02-2004, 02:06 PM
HAND 1

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (9 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 2/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 7/images/graemlins/club.gif, J/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) Q/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, Hero checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, SB calls, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 5/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
SB checks, <font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 calls, <font color="CC3333">SB raises</font>, Hero<font color="red">??? </font>

<font color="orange">I think it is obvious to anyone not in a coma (although that does not exclude one from playing at party /images/graemlins/wink.gif) I hit my draw. Obviously there are only 2 choices as I don't think anyone would advocate folding here. </font>


HAND 2:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

The villan here has been pretty loose passive in the 12 or so hands I had seen up to this point. Sees most flops, I have rarely seen him raise and did not see him 3 bet once.

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with A/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 4/images/graemlins/spade.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP1 folds, <font color="CC3333">Button raises</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Button caps</font>, Hero <font color="red">?????? </font>
DoctorDrew
05-03-2004, 07:05 AM
sthief09
05-03-2004, 07:24 AM
Hand 1- you can't assume your opponents think about waht you have. River is a painfully easy 3-bet.

Hand 2- I'd call down at this point. That's some pretty ballsy raising by him. Betting the turn could be right too, especially if he's an aggressive player.
chief444
05-03-2004, 10:15 AM
I agree on both. Hand 1 I see no reason based on the play previous to the river to think that SB has you beat. I think a smaller flush is likely. He may even have slowplayed trips. Who knows for sure at these games? /images/graemlins/confused.gif But defitely 3-bet this. I'd be suprised if your hand was not good. Of course I had my King-high flush lose to an Ace high flush an astonishing four times last night (three times with three of the suit on the board and once with four of the suit but heads-up) so what do I know?

Hand two I definitely call this down unless he is normally a passive player.
DoctorDrew
05-03-2004, 10:30 AM
Hand 1--I just called and I was kicking myself immediately. In my defense, I had played in a home game the night before and villan's play at that game would have only meant I was beaten. Of course this being Party, he proudly turned over his 10c5c and I took home the pot. Stupid me.

Hand 2-- I folded. And based on previous and later play watching this guy, I think this was absolutely correct. He did not 3 bet another pot the rest of the session. I think this was one of those situations where I was asking for information and he gave it to me. I believe there is no way I am ahead and will lose this hand UI and may need to hit 2 cards to win.

Thoughts????
chief444
05-03-2004, 10:46 AM
[ QUOTE ]
The villan here has been pretty loose passive in the 12 or so hands I had seen up to this point. Sees most flops, I have rarely seen him raise and did not see him 3 bet once.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2-- I folded. And based on previous and later play watching this guy, I think this was absolutely correct. He did not 3 bet another pot the rest of the session. I think this was one of those situations where I was asking for information and he gave it to me. I believe there is no way I am ahead and will lose this hand UI and may need to hit 2 cards to win.

Thoughts????

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's tough to get a good enough read after watching someone for 12 hands or so to fold an overpair in a heads-up situation. It may have been a good laydown, but it's one that I would need a very good read to make. The board is somewhat scary but the odds of one opponent having a made flush are very slim.
Sam T.
05-03-2004, 11:03 AM
Hand One: Why bet the flop, but not the turn? You still have a ton of outs, and two customers.
DoctorDrew
05-03-2004, 11:16 AM
[ QUOTE ]
Hand One: Why bet the flop, but not the turn? You still have a ton of outs, and two customers.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thoughts on this have always been a little unusual. If I am last to act, I would probably check it through to see a free card. So, getting checked through is OK, but it also might give me information on MP1 as to whether he has a hand or is drawing, in case something other than the flush hits. I can quote you no data on this, just the way I tend to play these. I should start mixing this up though so as to take away the certainty that I am drawing.
DoctorDrew
05-03-2004, 11:20 AM
[ QUOTE ]

I think it's tough to get a good enough read after watching someone for 12 hands or so to fold an overpair in a heads-up situation. It may have been a good laydown, but it's one that I would need a very good read to make. The board is somewhat scary but the odds of one opponent having a made flush are very slim.



[/ QUOTE ]

I see what you are saying, but sometimes, that is all the time you have. I really think this was a good laydown. I asked for information and he gave it to me. And really the rest of the session this guy almost never raised and honestly I never saw him 3 bet or cap anything. But he did call raises with top pair or worse.
chief444
05-03-2004, 11:21 AM
If the king outs are good (which they may not be) he has 12 outs for a 12 in 46 chance of making the river or 2.83:1 odds. With two opponents and the board paired I would check here also. It's not a good value bet. I wouldn't normally semi-bluff in this situation either.
chief444
05-03-2004, 11:28 AM
I'm sure it was a good laydown based on what you're telling me. I guess my main point is you seem like you are being result oriented on hand 2 (basing your laydown on the fact that you obtained a better read on hands played after this one) rather than considering whether it was a good play based on what you knew at that time. If you did have a good enough read after so few hands then I agree with you.
DoctorDrew
05-03-2004, 11:40 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I'm sure it was a good laydown based on what you're telling me. I guess my main point is you seem like you are being result oriented on hand 2 (basing your laydown on the fact that you obtained a better read on hands played after this one) rather than considering whether it was a good play based on what you knew at that time. If you did have a good enough read after so few hands then I agree with you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I felt this was a good laydown at the time too. Sorry, I did not mean to imply otherwise. The way he played later really confirmed my suspicions. I would really like to know what others would do. What would it take for you to laydown this hand?