Flop decision

Hand I just played online:


I post after the button and get dealt QhQc


4 limpers to me, I raise, button folds, SB folds, BB re-raises, all call.


Flop: 7d Jc 7s


BB bets out, all call to player on my right who raises. I muck.


I didn't feel good about the button raise and with that flop he had to have AKs or TT to be behind me. Plus, with that many callers and the raise on the flop, I could be behind a 7.


Anyone else play this differently having just sat down at a table. I did raise out of my post, if that changes my image for the other players...


Thanks!

If you just posted you really have no idea what the other players could be holding, but you have over pair post flop. It's possible you could be facing a set of jacks or three sevens, but you don't know that. Imo you have given the table an open invitation to push you off future hands. I would have been there to the river in most cases.

"I did not feel good about the button raise"


The button folded. I assume you did not feel good about the big blind 3-betting you preflop which is understandable.


I would ask you to consider the size of the pot. Preflop, six of you put in 3 bets so there were 18 small bets in the pot. There are 7 more small bets by the time the action gets to you making a total of 25 small bets. It costs you 2 small bets to play your two-outer when you are behind. If you catch it, you rate to win a big pot.


Furthermore, you probably don't know the big blind well enough to assume that he would only 3-bet preflop with AA or KK. The player on your right raising the flop bet may just mean he has a top pair of jacks in most cases. Folding is a mistake. I would at least call and probably 3-bet on the flop with my big overpair since there is an outside chance my hand is good. If it isn't and no one has trip sevens, it would be a great coup if the big blind decided to muck pocket kings for instance convinced that between the raiser and the 3-bettor he is beat and playing two outs. It could happen. I have seen stranger things at the poker table.

There are...25 small bets (in the pot). It costs you 2 small bets to play your two-outer when you are behind. If you catch it, you rate to win a big pot.


I think this statement could be misinterpreted. If you are sure you are behind (ex: you held 44), then you should definately not be calling to catch a 2-outer. Even when you catch, the pot you win won't be big enough to compensate for all the times you miss.


However, I agree with you later statement that you should 3-bet this flop with an overpair of QQ. Folding in this type of situation is not the way to play.

How about capping it pre-flop? Granted, you don't know the game yet, but you may drop at least a couple of the limpers (including the guy on the right if he's playing A7s or something similar). Tossing the QQ is a much easier decision if your 4-bet on the previous round doesn't keep people from raising ahead of you.

A few thoughts:

1) The BB's bet on the flop is automatic. He put in the last raise pre-flop. He could easily have TT, AK, or AJs.

2) The raise on the flop is more likely to have come from a J than a 7. Many players wait until the turn with a 7.

3) If the raise is coming from a Jack, you are way ahead with Queens and 7's. He can't hit his kicker if it is a Q or lower, he needs one of the remaining two Jacks to win.

4) I would be a *little* worried about one of the callers having the 7.

5) The pot is huge and getting bigger. Gutshots were correct to call the flop bet.

Though I am not against 4 betting preflop with the reasoning that I have the best hand, I strongly disagree that a 4-bet after everyone has called 3 bets will drop anyone.

Thanks for the input. Helpful as always. I think I played it too tightly and you all agree.


Assuming you 3-bet the flop, at least 2 ppl call, and everyone checks to you on a rag turn -- would you bet? I remember reading in either Jones or HFAP that if you hold an over pair to a paired board you are either way ahead or way behind, in which case it's best not to bet since you'll likely have everyone fold or have someone raise you. Thoughts?

You're not trying to get anybody to fold when you 4-bet pre-flop. The goal is simply to get the maximum amount of money into the pot when it is very likely that you have the best hand.

I know. I was reponding to Swampy's recommendation of 4-betting to loose some limpers.

Sorry. I somehow missed that Swampy was saying you might get some limpers to fold. Of course, nobody is folding to a 4-bet after calling 3 bets.

Yeah, as soon as I hit the "post" button, I wished I'd gotten it back. Thanks for pointing out the error of my ways. /images/biggrin.gif

mkpoker,


I think in htis situation you have to bet. Your hand is vulnerable to overcards, and you could very well get anyone out who has an Ace or a king, or even AK at this point.


If your overpair was Aces, or even Kings, I would be more comfortable with the check on the turn.


Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.