Help Wanted

[rusty pistol]

Playing 3/6 live with a kill. A little information about the players in this hand. SB is extremely drunk, possibly high. He's been at the table for approximately 30 minutes and is already about half way through his second rack, without ever having raised. BB is playing a few too many hands and will bet if he catches any part of the flop. CO seems fairly reasonable up to this point, plays straight forward nothing fancy. On to the hand.

I'm UTG with a kill. Folded to the CO who calls $6. Button folds SB calls $6 BB calls $6. I look at my cards and see QdQc. I check my option.

4 to the flop for 2 BB

Flop 7s Jc 4d.

Checked to me, I bet $6 CO, SB and BB all call $6.

4 to the turn for 4BB.

Turn 9s[7s Jc 4d].

Checked to me, I bet $12 CO raises to $24. SB surprisingly folds, or he may have passed out, anyway he's out of the hand. BB folds. I call $12 more.

Heads up to the river for 8BB.
River 2h [9s 7s Jc 4d].

I check. CO bets $12, I call $12. He turns over Jh, 4h for two pair and takes the pot.

I didn't raise before the flop for a couple of reasons. One, I felt that my raise would not get any of them to fold and two I din't want the pot so large that they would chase to the river whether they had correct odds to do so or not. My questions are, should I have 3 bet the CO on the turn and then led out on the river? Should I have bet the river and folded to a raise. I honestly could not put him on 10-8 for the straight, and no way did I put him on J-4. I thought he had A-J and was trying to take the pot with his turn raise.

All criticsm and comments are greatly appreciated.

[Dylan Wade]

[ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise before the flop for a couple of reasons. One, I felt that my raise would not get any of them to fold and two I din't want the pot so large that they would chase to the river whether they had correct odds to do so or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you playing a tournament or something?

If this is a cash game, you must understand that making this raise is more important than winning the hand.

[bisonbison]

Quiz time: You're in MP with AA, two limpers to you and you raise. What do you want the rest of the table to do? What's the best possible preflop outcome?

[asdf1234]

You should have raised preflop.

[rusty pistol]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise before the flop for a couple of reasons. One, I felt that my raise would not get any of them to fold and two I din't want the pot so large that they would chase to the river whether they had correct odds to do so or not.

[/ QUOTE ]

Were you playing a tournament or something?

If this is a cash game, you must understand that making this raise is more important than winning the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was a cash game and you are correct I should have raised pre-flop. Thanks for the help.

[rusty pistol]

[ QUOTE ]
Quiz time: You're in MP with AA, two limpers to you and you raise. What do you want the rest of the table to do? What's the best possible preflop outcome?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would want the rest of the table that hasn't acted yet, to fold. I should have raised, I realize that now. In fact I realized it right after the CO raised the turn.

[Dylan Wade]

*beep* wrong answer!

You know what to do (raise with aces) but not why, yet.

I don't know if I want to give it away, but the right answer is you want everyone to call your raise.

[asdf1234]

Why would you want everyone to fold when you have the nuts?

[rusty pistol]

[ QUOTE ]
Why would you want everyone to fold when you have the nuts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Personally I would want those left to act to fold to protect my hand. I would be almost 100% certain that the limpers that have already put in one bet will play for two. Maybe my thinking is backwards and needs to be adjusted. Which is why I'm asking these questions and I greatly appreciate all the help I can get.

[bisonbison]

One of the lessons we all have to learn starting out, is that you want to win chips, not pots.

No matter how many players are in, AA will win a lot more than it's fair share. Against 1 player it wins about 85%, against 9, it wins about 30%. It doesn't matter if you lose 70% of the time, because the 30% you win makes it hugely profitable for you.

If 10 players put in 4 SB before the flop, in the long run, 12 SB, 30%, will belong to you. The same advantage exists for all pairs, but for pairs 99 and higher, the advantage is simply huge. While there are sometimes reasons not to cap preflop, you are never far wrong to put in as much money as possible against as many people as possibly with AA, KK, QQ, and AKs.

Look here for more detail:

http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm

[Dylan Wade]

Have you ever read Theory of Poker by Sklansky? Basically, imagine your opponents turned up their cards face up to you... it's your turn to act: raise, call, fold? What's the best choice? AA is easy. We don't even need to turn over the cards to know that we have all the hands beat. We don't make money at poker by winning hands and making players fold (not suckout), rather, we make money at poker by profiting off our opponent's calls when we're a favorite. Only in a tournament is the actual result of a hand important.

[rusty pistol]

[ QUOTE ]
*beep* wrong answer!

You know what to do (raise with aces) but not why, yet.

I don't know if I want to give it away, but the right answer is you want everyone to call your raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

My thinking is that yes, I have the nuts pre-flop. Having the rest of the field call my raise increases the chances that my pre-flop nuts will be cracked. Don't misunderstand me, I do raise with AA, KK AK and most times QQ along with other hands. I didn't raise this time because I felt that the other 3 already in would chase to the river with the pot as large as it was. I've always thought that it's better to play against fewer opponents when I have a pocket pair. It would appear that my thinking has been wrong and that I need to adjust. Thanks.

[rusty pistol]

Under any condition I would raise AA pre-flop. However, in this hand I had QQ. I realize that there is only a slight difference in the two starting hands and YES I should have raised pre-flop. But could someone help me out with the other questions I asked. Given the way the hand was played, should I have 3 bet the CO's turn raise and then led out on the river? Should I have led out on the river and folded to a raise? Or should I have done exactly what I did: check, call and then kick myself for not raising pre-flop?

[JARID]

I have a few thoughts. You should raise pre-flop not to get people to fold, but because QQ is a great hand that you will win more than you fair share with it and thus you want more money in the pot.

Second, I don't think people that open limp on a kill with j4 are considering their pot odds when making their decisions. As I was reading your post I had in my head either 10-8 or J9 "sooted".

The guy is a moron who got lucky. Aside from not raising pre-flop I thought the rest of your play was fine.

Regards,
~J

[harboral]

You get the poker gift of finding a nice pocket pair on your kill, great deal. Too bad you didn't take advantage of the opportunity by raising. Don't worry about people getting tied to their hands..........Raise when you have a hand that is almost certainly best, and doesn't even need to improve to win at the river (alright, this time it did, but you have to rasie). AL

[rusty pistol]

Thanks to all of you who have responded so far. After reviewing your replies I can see that by the slimmest of margins you think I should have raised pre-flop. /images/graemlins/wink.gif. I don't post here much but I do read them every day and all of you have certainly helped me improve my game. Thanks again.

[Dylan Wade]

I just ran accross this site a minute ago. This was created by Ed Miller, one of the best posters to come through this fourm. I thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/index.shtml

[WarmonkEd]

[ QUOTE ]
I just ran accross this site a minute ago. This was created by Ed Miller, one of the best posters to come through this fourm. I thought you might find it interesting.

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/index.shtml

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, finally a face to go with the name.