50-100 hand

[Clarkmeister]

Just to give me something to talk about while I'm watching the Derby coverage. Put me on a hand since people seem to like doing that.

Decent player limps UTG. I raise in MP. Calling station calls in the BB. 3 to the flop for 6.5sbs.

Flop: Ks 5c 3h. Checked to me, I bet, both call.

Turn: 7s. Checked to me, I check.

River: 3d. BB checks, UTG bets, I call, BB calls.


Edited to include my position.

[Pipedream]

What position did you raise from after the Utg limper? That information may help in deciphering what cards you hold. I recall a post you made a while back where you played AK like this. With the second spade hitting the board on the turn I'm not sure if you would opt to check this hand here though. A hand like 66 may be a possibility if your raise was made in late position in an attempt to isolate the limper with a pair and position. I'm torn. I'll say a crafty AK or a savvy 66.

Pipedream

[Tyler Durden]

I have no idea.

[Clarkmeister]

"I recall a post you made a while back where you played AK like this."

That hand had a paired board. The flop was something like K77r with 3 flop callers. This is a different situation.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
I have no idea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cmon, its not like its magic. You'll have to do better than that to win the WSOP. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[granny50]

This was a really confusing hand... I had to choose between you holding 2 high spade cards.. but then the river call would not make sense.. If you hit the flop, then checking the turn would not make sense..
I would have to say a pocket pair such as 88-99. But then again nobody listens to what I say...

[tpir90036]

the range of hands you might raise with in MP after one limper is pretty wide. if you had a K i don't think you would have checked the turn unless you had something like KJs/KTs and put UTG on KQs/KJs after he called your flop bet on a very uncoordinated board. you could also have any pocket pair from QQ-99....

i will say that UTG has KQs and you had either KJs or JJ.

[The Dude]

I'm going to go w/ QQ (or perhaps JJ) here. I think if your pocket pair had been smaller you'd be more prone to bet the turn.

[Clarkmeister]

To help, what of the following hands makes the most sense? One of them was my actual hand:

Final board: [Ks 5c 3h] 7s 3d

A. KhQc
B. AsQs
C. QhQd
D. 9c9s
E. 6h6c

[AJo Go All In]

i guess it's got to be queens, right?

[Schaefer]

Small stakes player checking out the big guys,
Before you put these multiple choices here I was gonna say AQs. I don't think you check QQ or any of those PPs on the turn. I'm sure you didn't expect the overcall.

Schaefer

[The Dude]

- With KQ you've got a value bet on the turn.

- AsQs you've got huge semi-bluff value. I think you'd bet the turn.

- 99 and 66, if you check the turn that means you're done with the hand. Too many overcards that can hurt you. Bet the turn and check through the river.

- QQ is the only one that makes sense to me here.

[PassiveCaller]

E. 6h6c

[Softrock]

Clark - I'd put you on a pocket pair, probably medium strength (I think if it's as high as QQ or JJ then you bet the turn). I considered AQ but question the call on the river with another player behind you.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]


B. AsQs


[/ QUOTE ]

It might be the 66 hand but I'll go with this. I think you'd bet the other 3 hands on the turn.

[Mikey]

you had KQ. If you bet this hand on the turn, they'll all fold since the flop is so uncoordinated but you are trying to extract the most especially by them calling you on the river.

by not betting the other hands out on the turn would be just too weak in my opinion. I could not see myself checking all those hands, I would have to be betting them for that reason that

1) hoping they fold.
2) hoping I could get a free showdown at river and risk not being bluffed out of the pot.
3) risking giving one them a silly card to outdraw me.

Both the 66 and the 99 are above the King and they figure to be good since none of them bet out the flop in which case it is almost mandatory you bet the turn if you held either of these two hands.

I'm guessing the other hands put in your mutiple choice were hands held by your opponents.

It is definitley clear that you opponents hold real hands here to be staying on the flop.

They probably hold the 66 and the 99.

if you held any of the other hands other than KQ then you must have had a really strong read to check those hands. but my money in on KQ.

[Mikey]

they must have been pissed too when you showed them that hand. You squeezed out $100 each from them.

They are probably thinking. WHY THE @()%) didn't you bet the turn!!!!!!

Something like that could be enough to set them on tilt.

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
- With KQ you've got a value bet on the turn.

- AsQs you've got huge semi-bluff value. I think you'd bet the turn.

- 99 and 66, if you check the turn that means you're done with the hand. Too many overcards that can hurt you. Bet the turn and check through the river.

- QQ is the only one that makes sense to me here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. AJo nailed it too.

In the hand, the final board was K3573. UTG had 88 and BB had A5 so my QQ was good.

[Clarkmeister]

"I'd put you on a pocket pair, probably medium strength (I think if it's as high as QQ or JJ then you bet the turn). "

You have this backwards. The vulnerability of QQ vs 99 dictates that I bet the 99 and have the option to check the QQ. I'm not saying checking QQ is always the right play, but I am certainly more inclined to check the QQ in this spot than the 99.

[The Dude]

With QQ the right move is to check on the turn. Neither opponent is going to fold a better hand to a turn bet, and when you chek they are more likely to bet/ call on the river with a hand that you beat.

The reason you don't want to do this play with 99 or other such pocket pairs is because there are more overcards that can hurt your hand. With QQ you only have to be concerned if an A falls.

Savy?

[The Dude]

The BB over-called with A5, eh?

After witnessing this, I would be more inclined to bet the turn against this opponent in the future, although I would have played this hand the exact same way.

[Clarkmeister]

Told you he was a calling station. I was actually fairly surprised UTG didn't have a king when he called the flop.

[The Dude]

Yeah, but 'calling station' doesn't necessarily mean 'over-calls on the river with sh*t.' This player is beyond the typical 'calling station,' IMO.

[Clarkmeister]

Hey, can't fault my game selection. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Vehn]

uh am I the only one who habitually bets all 3 streets here with QQ and usually gets called on the river by worse hands?

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
uh am I the only one who habitually bets all 3 streets here with QQ and usually gets called on the river by worse hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

I do many times. Depends on the opponents. In this case, I was pretty surprised UTG didn't have a king, he'd played pretty predictably and had given me a fairly wide berth.

[Tyler Durden]

[ QUOTE ]
uh am I the only one who habitually bets all 3 streets here with QQ and usually gets called on the river by worse hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why the hand didn't make sense to me. I didn't feel like thinking. I suspected it to be JJ or QQ, in any event I knew it was a strangely played hand. Like Vehn, I'd usually bet JJ or QQ on the turn here.

[bernie]

Maybe a high/mid underpair, Qs to Ts or AQs. though if you have the underpair, i dont see why youd check the turn unless you think youd get c/r'd. Or if these players are likely to let you bet the thing for them, like say, the BB,
so you decide to save a bet, inducing a bet on the river.

Im not sure youd just call this river with A high. So ill go for the underpair.

b

[bernie]

With the K on the board, and the way the board is, wouldnt 99 be as good a call here as QQ? Even 6s i dont really see a fold given how your opponents played. You induced the bet. I dont see you raising preflop here with 6s though.

b

[bernie]

I saw your response as to how youd play 99 or TT as far as the turn. That makes sense.

b

[bernie]

Wouldnt you have heard from UTG earlier if he had a K?

b

[AJo Go All In]

i normally bet the turn here, and i imagine clark does too. but, i think it's a good idea to check behind in these spots once in awhile (especially in a live game), just so they know they can't check-raise the turn on you every time.

[The Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Wouldnt you have heard from UTG earlier if he had a K?

[/ QUOTE ]
We don't know anything about UTG, except that he's "decent." I've played against many "decent" players who will check-raise the turn with a K here if they know villian to be aggressive, like Clarkmeister is.

Playing this way not only saves you from a check-raise this hand, but it also announces that they can't count on you to always bet in hands like this, making them more likely to play straightforward against you in the futre.

His read on UTG is also important, as it seems Clark was much more convinced he had a K than I was when I read the post.

[bernie]

i think i mentioned the possible c/r in my initial response.

I was mainly asking because, since i dont play 50-100, i dont know what a decent player is on that level as compared to 10-20.

A great tell ive seen lately is when players miss their c/r on ya. At least on the Lower limits. It's great to watch their hopes and dreams dashed by the expression on their face. A gal i was playing with last night, everyone to the crap pit could see when she missed the c/r after id check the button on the turn.

It seems you had about the same read on UTG having a K that i did.

b

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Let me understand this correctly. You are not reraised btf, there is ONE overcard and you are checking the turn when your fairly straightforward opponents have checked to you?

Is this really Clark or an imposter?

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[Clarkmeister]

Babe,

Just because you like to call me with nothing, doesn't mean that all my opponents do. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Josh W]

No fair posting results before I could "guess"!!

[Clarkmeister]

[ QUOTE ]
No fair posting results before I could "guess"!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it would have been "amazing" watching you get it right. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Everyone's going to be sad to hear that in.....oh....5 hours playing at the same table over two nights that we didn't really have a single hand we were both involved in.

[Josh W]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
No fair posting results before I could "guess"!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it would have been "amazing" watching you get it right. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Everyone's going to be sad to hear that in.....oh....5 hours playing at the same table over two nights that we didn't really have a single hand we were both involved in.

[/ QUOTE ]

DON'T BLAME ME...I played 71% of the hands!

Heads up was a near disaster...I got stuck, was carddead, ended up winning a few hundred....shoulda been able to win a few thousand tho /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Good seeing you,

Josh

[Clarkmeister]

Likewise.

Yeah, that table was a good spot for you. At least you won. Beats losing. See you soon.

[Tosh]

[ QUOTE ]
uh am I the only one who habitually bets all 3 streets here with QQ and usually gets called on the river by worse hands?

[/ QUOTE ]

No I do too, which is why I was surprised when Clark said he had queens.

[PokerBabe(aka)]

Yup, but if you bet the turn, there is some chance that one or both of your opponents will fold (if they hold a weak K or underpair to your QQ, eh? Given that you raised preflop and bet the flop, I think these boneheads default to giving you AK or minimum QK IF you bet the turn when checked to. Now, let's say that one or both call the turn....ok, so you STILL have position on them on the river, right? Bet the turn.

/images/graemlins/heart.gif

[J_V]

Your plan is to move them off a weak King? LOL.

Not betting through these type of boards with weaker hands, because you know your opponents are hard-pressed to call w/ nothing and likely to rope a dope a king is a sign of a good player.

Not a even a good player would fold a king here, let alone a bad one.

The turn check is very standard with most non paired hands....hands like 9-9 through QQ could bet for value.

The follow throughs on the Q and K and A high boards play very differently than all other types of boards.

[J_V]

I don't like the turn check. You should bet the turn against most players being that the pot is sort've protected from a turn c/r play. You'll often be able to get full value from this hand and check behind when you smell king.

Certainly your line is reasonable for the standard way/ahead behind reasons, but not optimal IMO.

[PassiveCaller]

I was surprised too but the call on the river is much much too bad to be anything else the way the hand played. I don't want to be a caller there at the end 3-way with 66 and I'm sure Clark feels the same.

[nykenny]

Pocket QQ?

kenny

[SinCityGuy]

I'd say QQ.

If you had a smaller PP like JJ or TT, you would have more of a need to protect your hand with a turn bet.

[AJo Go All In]

ok, so let me get THIS straight. the reason why clark should bet the turn is because if he does, his opponents will put him on KQ or AK?

huh?

[PokerBabe(aka)]

If I call you in a 50-100 game, I definitely have a King /images/graemlins/grin.gif /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/grin.gif


Babe /images/graemlins/heart.gif

[mikelow]