Flush Draws & OESDs -- Help [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

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Blindfolk

04-30-2004, 06:33 PM

My biggest weakness seems to be open ended straight draws and flush draws on the flop. When I don't catch them on the river, I have no clue what to do, which is why I'm here asking you guys.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (8 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 7/images/graemlins/spade.gif, J/images/graemlins/spade.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button folds, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 6/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 5/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 8/images/graemlins/spade.gif (5 players) 
Hero bets, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (4 players) 
Hero bets, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 2/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (3 players) 
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP1 folds, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB
Main Pot: 7.50 BB, won by UTG.
Pot 2: 1 BB, overbet by UTG.

Results in white below: 
UTG doesn't show.
Outcome: UTG wins 8.50 BB. 

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif, A/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 7/images/graemlins/heart.gif, 6/images/graemlins/club.gif, 9/images/graemlins/club.gif (6 players) 
SB checks, Hero checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, CO checks, Button bets, SB calls, Hero raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 4/images/graemlins/heart.gif (4 players) 
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

River: (11 BB) J/images/graemlins/spade.gif (4 players) 
SB checks, Hero checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB
Main Pot: 11 BB, between Button, SB, Hero and MP2. > Pot won by MP2 (11 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB shows Ks 8c (high card, king).
Hero shows 8h Ah (high card, ace).
MP2 shows Ac 9s (one pair, nines).
Button shows 8d 6d (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: MP2 wins 11 BB.

bisonbison

04-30-2004, 07:52 PM

Hand 1 seems pretty normal. I bet that turn most of the time, but I'm not sure if I get 4 folds often enough to justify it.

In Hand 2, I don't know why you checkraised the flop. Bet out, you want callers.

bakku

04-30-2004, 07:57 PM

I like check/calling the turn in hand 1, you will rarely get all 3 players behind you to fold

I don't see why you would want to c/r the flop and force everyone to call 2 bets cold, you want them to call. Bet out and let everyone call

Blindfolk

04-30-2004, 08:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In Hand 2, I don't know why you checkraised the flop. Bet out, you want callers.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying out something new here. My main goal was to see if he hit his set. If he had raised and I would be forced to call, I would probably check-fold on the turn because my ace would probably no longer be good.

This isn't my normal routine on straight draws. Most of the time, I bet out but I felt like trying something new. I'm mainly looking for advice on the river if there is any other play on Party Poker .5/1 rather than check/fold.

bisonbison

04-30-2004, 08:15 PM

I was trying out something new here. My main goal was to see if he hit his set.

His set? How did you put anyone on a set on the flop?

Blindfolk

04-30-2004, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I was trying out something new here. My main goal was to see if he hit his set.

His set? How did you put anyone on a set on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, this was a one time thing that I was trying out. My line of thinking, which was only for this hand, was to see if he had a set or if he just had top pair.

jeffseib

04-30-2004, 08:27 PM

In hand one, you are in EP on the flop. The raise is correct to try to get a free card and also for value as with 5 players seeing the flop, you should get a lot of action. On the turn, you should have taken the free card. If someone bet, you still have sufficient odds to call. To make this kind of play more successful, you have to become known as a "check-raiser", and you have to prepare the field, so to speak. Occasionally, use a check-raise on the flop or the turn so that when you check, other players won't take that as a sign of weakness. If your flush card hits, then a CR can be used to fatten the pot /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

The same goes for the straight draw, only be careful if three of a suit hit on the turn.

You also ask about the river when your draw misses. If your opponents are the kind of players that will play small pairs all the way to the river and there is no other obvious strong hand out there, then check and call with 99 or better. If all you have are overcards, then just check and fold with these kind of players.

If your opponent will often drop on the river to a bet, then bet. Your bluff might win the pot. Of course, if he raises, just drop it there and save a BB.

SofaCoach

04-30-2004, 08:53 PM

Play 'em like you played hand 1. Bet the flop, bet the turn, check-fold the river against multiple opponents. If you are heads up at the river you can try to steal the pot with a bet here.

Blindfolk

04-30-2004, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
In hand one, you are in EP on the flop. The raise is correct to try to get a free card and also for value as with 5 players seeing the flop, you should get a lot of action. On the turn, you should have taken the free card. If someone bet, you still have sufficient odds to call. To make this kind of play more successful, you have to become known as a "check-raiser", and you have to prepare the field, so to speak. Occasionally, use a check-raise on the flop or the turn so that when you check, other players won't take that as a sign of weakness. If your flush card hits, then a CR can be used to fatten the pot /images/graemlins/laugh.gif.

The same goes for the straight draw, only be careful if three of a suit hit on the turn.

You also ask about the river when your draw misses. If your opponents are the kind of players that will play small pairs all the way to the river and there is no other obvious strong hand out there, then check and call with 99 or better. If all you have are overcards, then just check and fold with these kind of players.

If your opponent will often drop on the river to a bet, then bet. Your bluff might win the pot. Of course, if he raises, just drop it there and save a BB.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks. This is exactly what I neeeded.

sthief09

04-30-2004, 08:59 PM

If hand 2 was raised preflop, your play would've been correct. You want to win the pot, since it's big, so you check-raise to make better aces fold. But the pot isn't big, so cleaning up your ace out isn't as important.

Ed Miller

04-30-2004, 11:06 PM

Like I said, this was a one time thing that I was trying out. My line of thinking, which was only for this hand, was to see if he had a set or if he just had top pair.

Why do you care? You have a straight draw. A straight beats a set. This don't make no sense at all.

Blindfolk

04-30-2004, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Why do you care? You have a straight draw. A straight beats a set. This don't make no sense at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is my line of thinking: If an ace falls, is it good or do I need to get the straight? If he were to re-raise me, it probably means he had a set on that flop and the ace wouldn't help.