A common situation.

4-8 slightly loose game.


four limpers to me in the cutoff with AK of clubs.


I raise, the button and small blind folds, the BB and the limpers call. (about 11 small bets after rake.)


Flop Ks, Qh, 4s.


Checked to me, I bet, two callers. (14 small bets)


Turn, Th (Ks, Qh, 4s).


I bet, one fold, and I get checkraised.(10 big bets)


I called, and after an offsuit 7 came on the river, I called again.


Comments?


Thanks for your input,

Bob T.

I think preflop, and on the flop when I am checked to, I made the default plays.


The situation that I was faced with on the turn is a tough one.


There were 10 big bets in the pot after I was checkraised, and I didn't know my opponent, so I don't know if he was capable of a semibluff checkraise. But I could imagine that if he had KJ he might make that play. Additionally he might make that play if he had KX of hearts or AX of hearts or spades.


He might also be checkraising with a set, against which I had 4 outs (the jacks) two pair, where I would have 3-8 outs, or a straight where I would have 3 outs to a chop, or maybe a win if he has the J9 straight.


Against an unknown opponent, do you call here, or do you fold? The other play that I considered is to 3 bet the turn, and fold if he makes it four, and check behind him on the river unless an off suit jack came.


Once I get to the river, and all the draws have missed except for the ones that got there on the turn, do I have to call this hand getting 12-1?


On this particular hand, he had KQ off suit for two pair and won.


Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

I don't particularly like the 3 bet then fold to a cap play since you could just call it all and show it down for the same amount of money. If you don't know the player it's tough to fold here.

I think I like 3 betting the turn here; if you get capped, you can lay down safely. You might catch your unknown opponet trying to make a move in which case he might dump. You will almost certainly get a free show down, and it will send a message to all that you can't be bullied on the turn.


Good luck,


Fitz

Generally, you should call both the turn and river. You call the turn because you:


1. Might have the best hand. Though this is less likely in lower limits.

2. Might have a bunch of outs to a win. In this case, you had 7 outs which gave you the whole pot. It is possible for you to have as many as 12.

3. You might get a free showdown.


On the river, you might pick off a bluff. But more importantly, this is one of those spots where you don't want to be known as a folder. Otherwise they will take shots at you on the turn and river whenever you raise preflop.


Because you must call the turn due to the large possible number of outs, this is a time to call the river since it is only one more bet. This allows you to safely fold other hands (such as an overpair vs an open pair on the board) when you get checkraised on the turn. Because they know you will call down, this allows you to save bets in other situations. And since some small % of the time you will have the best hand, you really don't cost yourself much by calling, even if you know it to be incorrect.

I'd have to know my opponent is capable of check/raise semi-bluffing the turn before I'd pay him off on the river. There are just aren't many hands our hero will beat.


I do like your point about not becoming known as a folder, however, he didn't fold right away. He'll have a hand worth calling the river enough times where it still doesn't figure to be profitable for his opponents to risk 3 big bets to push him out.

Thanks Clarkmeister,


I was thinking along those lines. I sometimes think that I pay off a little too often in these situations, and I was wondering if this might be a situation that I could get away from on the end. I also thought that the decisions were close enough that they might provoke some discussion.


Thanks,


Bob T.

Looks like a set or a made gut-shot. Folding seems to be correct imo.

Bob,


It's certainly very close either way.


I'd make my final choice based on the specific player involved. But when its that close on the river, I tend to err on the side of calling. If I am going to bail in these spots, I try and do it on the turn. With this particular hand, you really can't fold on the turn because of the board. So I'd generally throw in that extra bet on the river.

This is another way to play it:

With a made straight possible when the turn card hits, just check along on the turn. Your bet can't prevent someone with a 4 straight from drawing out on you on the river anyway, as they will surely call here. You thus avoid a check raise when they have you beat, and can induce a bluff on the river from some players who might have folded had you bet the turn. Heads up I would still tend to bet the turn, but multiway I think this is a reasonable play.


Tim

Hi Tim,


I think I still have to bet the turn here. I might win the pot without further resistance. It is true that I won't make a 4 straight go away, but it also might be my last chance to charge a 4 straight a bet. I also want to charge anybody playing a worse pair than I have to get to the river. At the same time, it certainly would have worked much better in this instance to check the turn and call the river.


I also think that when you do get a good part of the flop, there is some value in going bet, bet, bet, until you get some resistance, although with some players resistance does come in the form of calling. I think that it allows you to win more pots early, because they know, or maybe just feel that they are not going to get a cheap showdown by calling the flop, or turn and getting to showdown from there.


Thanks for your response,

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

Bob,

I do see your point. I guess my recommendation was more a case of hindsight being 20/20. I think a key here (as in all poker decisions), is whether you can get a read on what your opponent(s) have. Of course this is sometimes impossible to do with many people, but that is probably the only way around this situation. In general I think I would still tend to check it if I was against people who loved to check-raise. Yesterday I was in a game against a guy who just loved to check-raise whenever he made a hand. I was check-raised on the turn by him several times. But with most people, check merely signifies weakness. Against these people then I agree a bet on the turn is correct, regardless of the scare cards. Obviously position would be key here too. Anyway an interesting hand.


Good luck,

Tim

Hi FW,


With 10 big bets in the pot, I am drawing 4 to 40 against a set, so it is close to neutral. If he made a straight, I am way behind, with either 3 outs to a win, or 3 to a chop, depending on which straight he has.


On the other hand, if he will play this way with two pair, as Clarkmeister pointed out, I could have as many as 12 outs - if he has say QT, 3 aces, 2 kings, 4 jacks, and 3 fours will all get me a win. If you add in that possibility, and the possibility that his bet is some kind of semibluff, I think that I have to call here.


This also speaks to the power of the semibluff, because if the player is known to semibluff checkraise, then I have to call him down when I am drawing thin, and his other plays get him paid better when he is ahead.


The posssible hand that really stuck out in my mind in this case was KJ suited. I thought his play was completely consistant with that holding. Limp preflop, call a flop bet from an aggressive(I hope) player, and when he developed a draw with top pair headsup, checkraise and see if he could win the pot. Although he might have checked the river down, he might have fired the last barrel to see if I would lay down my hand on the river.


Thanks for your response,

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

Hi Tim,


As you said, this is player dependent. If you were playing against the guy who liked to checkraise, and he called the flop, then maybe it would be a better idea to check behind him on the turn and simplify the river play. This might also have the advantage of making him play more straightforward in the future.


Thanks for the response,

Good luck,

Play well,


Bob T.

I think you have to call down. Clarkmeister says that you may have the best hand, may have a lot of outs if you don't, and you don't want to be a known 'folder'. That sounds about right and I can't anything interesting to that.


The think I would like to add is that for a while I fell into the trap of 3-betting in this situation because I didn't like calling down, thought 3-betting may buy a free showdown, and thought I may extract an extra bet on the river in those cases that I hit again. The problem is that you can easily get 4-bet on the turn because you've run into the nuts or near-nuts. And you've blown 2 bets with little chance of improving to more than a split pot.

I agree with your reasons of calling the turn. Based on my knowledge of my opponent, where more often than not, they play straight or tricky enough to slow play a set till the turn, I would be more inclined to fold on the river. I agree that it is wrong to project yourself as a folder but OTOH, I do not want to project myself as a caller when I know I am beat. This particular board dictates that I err on the side of caution.