New Column

[Ed Miller]

I am writing a monthly column for the new Casino & Gaming Television website.

You can check out the first one here:

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/index.shtml

[La Brujita]

Very cool article Ed! It reminds me of the old choose your own adventures books. FWIW I quessed QJs without looking at your choices on the river. I also usually reraise on the turn and don't count that as a wrong answer (imo its not necessarily a good play to get defensive so quick).

[mike l.]

"No dice ... you have gotten no questions right so far!"

what the hell does this mean and why does it keep popping up every time i answer a question!?!

i think your quiz is severely flawed...

[rbenuck4]

Great article, I had a lot of fun reading and playing along.

I got 7 out of 8 right, and I'm wondering about the one I got wrong. It had to do with the reason you raise with pocket aces, and my answer was to thin the field. While you obviously want to get more money in the pot, I always thought it was more important to get people out of the hand, than to get a few extra small bets in before the flop. Aces is not a hand I want playing against five or six people. I wold be more upset if everyone left to act called my double bet than if no one called except the two limpers. Just my two cents. Flame away.

[mike l.]

"He is almost certainly not planning a check-raise; virtually no one check-raises the turn and then tries another check-raise on the river."

you need to come play the 3-6 at my cardroom, you would be shocked at the constant checkraising. these kids here just LOVE the checkraise. my little brother plays 1-2 and 2-4 and he just constantly checkraises, nearly every hand he's on the hunt to pull off the hat trick, he thinks checkraising some guy twice on two consecutive streets is just the funniest thing on earth, and he is not alone.

seriously, it's a very very common play at low limits around here, more so than in the 20-40.

[B Dids]

A discussion I had with my friend about this.



FoD: i disagree with his last question

bdotdids: not there yet

FoD: ok.

FoD: well...i got 7 of 8.

bdotdids: I'm a 4/5 so far- and that's because I wanted to re-raise with my Aces. Which I feel is the correct play, or at least A correct play

bdotdids: what was your answer on the last one? I thought QJ was obviously the answer he was going for- but I could make a case for AK and some other hands in that position.

FoD: ak...exactly how i always see them played. obvious and agressively.

bdotdids: Yeah- I find it odd that he suggests a reasonable player would check with AK on that board

bdotdids: I also lost a point when I checked the river

FoD: i know he says that joe is agressive and all....and has money to lose....but as a rule, no body likes losing...i really doubt he'd reraise a person who he thought was good and raised (which i take it is "you" when you take the quiz). maybe that's too much thought put into it...but....

FoD: i mean...i can see it both ways, but the qj to me seems like a stretch.

bdotdids: You know why he doesn't have AK, 'cause he just called from the BB. I think that's what he wants you to think.

bdotdids: QJs calls your preflop raise, AK raises it

FoD: yeah...but he called a raise, from a player that's good...and even joe knows not to reraise and scare off the competition...

bdotdids: You wouldn't re-raise with AK in that spot?

FoD: would you reraise in the same scenario? i wouldn't, i think...not if i thought the other two would go.

bdotdids: I would. but then I'm used to the micros wheere I don't think that will chase people off AND I think that with AK I'd rather be heads up

FoD: well, right...but...we're talking about 3/6...which may or may not be different, but in my limited experience is (only sat at one superloose table...ever...but online i see at least one a day).

FoD: against anybody i'd rather be heads up with AA. no question. but as long as your money is at risk...get more in return.

Your thoughts- Is my thinking with AK flawed? Any other input?

[sthief09]

cold-calling in a tough game is sometimes a good idea because what you give up preflop you gain in deception. but at a B&M 3/6 table the two limpers probably have such bad hands, and don't think about what you have, so you give up too much by not raising preflop.

FWIW I play the hand the same as Joe, except I would've folded to the bet. There's not much he could have that I beat. AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, AK, AQ, AJ, KQ, even KJ, KT, and JT all beat me.

[Vehn]

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/images/pokerhand.hed.gif

[sthief09]

is he the guy in Office Space?

[Ed Miller]

Damn, Vehn... took you like two whole hours. I had the under on half an hour.

[jedi]

[ QUOTE ]
Great article, I had a lot of fun reading and playing along.

I got 7 out of 8 right, and I'm wondering about the one I got wrong. It had to do with the reason you raise with pocket aces, and my answer was to thin the field. While you obviously want to get more money in the pot, I always thought it was more important to get people out of the hand, than to get a few extra small bets in before the flop. Aces is not a hand I want playing against five or six people. I wold be more upset if everyone left to act called my double bet than if no one called except the two limpers. Just my two cents. Flame away.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Ed's explanation for that answer tells it all.

What was the famous question? "You have Aces and raise. What do you want everyone to do?"

[bernie]

Raising rockets has both benefits. IF they fold, it holds up more, IF they call, it holds up less, but wins much more. Both compensate each other making it a win win no matter what they do.

b

[Ed Miller]

While you obviously want to get more money in the pot, I always thought it was more important to get people out of the hand, than to get a few extra small bets in before the flop. Aces is not a hand I want playing against five or six people. I wold be more upset if everyone left to act called my double bet than if no one called except the two limpers.

I included the question specifically to correct this sort of thinking. There is more on this topic in my book.

Great article, I had a lot of fun reading and playing along.

Thanks a lot.. I appreciate it. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[bernie]

Very cool. I like the interaction. I also like the thorough explanations of each choice. Reminds me alot of the way feeney explains things in his book.

Looks like ya need a shave though. You hit puberty since ya got to vegas?

Have a good one

b

[Joe Tall]

Having met, Ed, this pure comedy. Well done Vehn.

Peace,
Joe Tall

[Homer]

You don't look as nerdy as I envisioned. Oh, and of course, nice article.

-- Homer

[BottlesOf]

I got 8 out of 8! I'm a poker champ /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Great article Ed, this is much better than a lot of stuff I read in other poker magazines.

Also, you look younger than I expected. I expected facial hair. Don't know why, just a picture I had.

[ThrillFactor]

Though I see merit in your reasoning to only call the turn, too much time lurking here has made me incapable of slowing down to his puny checkraise in this situation. However, if he caps the turn after my 3-bet, I start to wonder just what I've gotten myself into.

[Ed Miller]

You don't look as nerdy as I envisioned. Oh, and of course, nice article.

Hehe thanks, but I think that means you must have expected me to look like Louis from Revenge of the Nerds. It usually takes new people no more than about two minutes to peg me. I guess the MIT pocket protector gives me away sometimes, but I don't always wear that...

[Ed Miller]

Also, you look younger than I expected. I expected facial hair. Don't know why, just a picture I had.

Not young enough, I'm afraid. The high school girls usually catch on (at least when they are sober).

[Ed Miller]

Though I see merit in your reasoning to only call the turn, too much time lurking here has made me incapable of slowing down to his puny checkraise in this situation.

The main point I wanted to make on the turn was DON'T FOLD. Calling and raising are relatively close. Which one is better depends on your read.

In general, I would be somewhat more inclined to raise online, but call live. Online people check-raise the turn a lot more often with trashy stuff.

BTW, I already have a hand in mind for next month. It should challenge you guys a little more.

[SinCityGuy]

[ QUOTE ]
Aces is not a hand I want playing against five or six people.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be more than happy to play AA against six people every hand for the rest of my life. I would win about one out of three, and retire a multi-billionaire.

[Mike Gallo]

Well done.

Dude, Clark has never shaved your eye brows after a night of drinking?

[Yeknom58]

nice picture!

[B Dids]

I pictured Ed as older- and for some reason- balder.

[Yeknom58]

My girlfriend actually went to college with him so I've seen a picture of him before I even knew he was a poker guy.

I was commenting about the goofy smile. I would have made a "I'm a badass" expression.

Any why does everyone think ed is some middle-aged balding bozo. Why doesn't anyone say, "I thought he would have looked like brad pitt." I guess everyone would be pissed if he was a poker genius and a brad pitt looking dude. Not to say he's ugly....I'm not saying he's good looking or anything....Ahhh crap this stuff never comes out right...I'm not gay, seriously.

[Ed Miller]

Dude, Clark has never shaved your eye brows after a night of drinking?

No.

[Mike Gallo]

No.

Then you have never drank enough to black out /images/graemlins/smile.gif.

[Kurn, son of Mogh]

Good job. I bookmarked it.

[Inthacup]

Fun quiz. I got a 7/8 though, I think 3-betting the turn against Joe is better than just calling.


Cup

[Andy B]

Why are hands 1-8 all the same hand?


Good job, Ed.

[Dylan Wade]

My hand changed from AsAc to AsAh on the turn

[Mikey]

I don't have what it takes to win at 3-6 HE.

[slavic]

Ed -

Nice work.

I like 3 betting the turn versus just calling. A tricky live opponent often becomes very passive at the turn 3 bet. Of course another 12 likely means nothing to our anti-hero here but he's not listed as a maniac either.

[Amanjyaku]

me too. you got one wrong, but you made more money off the hand than ed did. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[slavic]

Not really, often when you 3 bet the turn, that is the last bet your putting in. It makes 1 more bet on a semi-bluff but makes the same on most hands you win. It also loses the same on hands you lose unless you are incapable of folding to a river bet. If your opponent would never semibluff or you are going to pay off anyway, then you need to simply call this down.

[Pipedream]

8 out of 8, I'm a poker champ! /images/graemlins/grin.gif Cool Idea Ed.

Pipedream

[Phat Mack]

Not really, often when you 3 bet the turn, that is the last bet your putting in.

In the example given, Joe's on a draw, so it's the last bet that Joe's putting in because he misses the river. But it's not the last bet that Hero puts in, at least according to the column.

If you are saying that if Hero doesn't 3-bet the turn, then Joe might fire another barrel on the river, then the amount won is the same; but in the column there are two bets on the turn and a bet-fold on the river so Hero makes an extra BB by 3-betting 4th street.

If your opponent would never semibluff...

But if he would semibluff, then we might as well make him pay. It doesn't make sense to 3-bet the turn in order to lay the hand: we can lay it as cheaply, or cheaper, by calling. It only makes sense to 3-bet if we want more money in the pot.

[Saborion]

I used to think like that too. I raised QQ in EP to get rid of players since it plays better against fewer opponents. In LP I usually didn't raise with QQ if there was a lot of limpers, since an A or a K always was out there on the board when all the cards had been dealt. Now I raise with TT in the small blind after many limpers since I figure to win more than my fair share. That's the reason you should raise hand such as QJs in LP after several limpers. You will not win as often against fewer opponents, but you will win more money when you win AND you will win more than your fair share. Winning more than your fair share is the key to it, else you might as well raise with 72o.

Here's (http://www.gocee.com/poker/HE_Value.htm) a chart you can look at to see how often a certain hand will hold up against a certain number of opponents. In general, if your hand is likely to win more than it's fair share against the number of opponents you're up against, you can raise with it. Not entierly true, but raising to get rid of opponents, just as Ed stated in his column, is usally not the primary reason to raise.

I think...

[Andy B]

I don't either, actually. Thank goodness for higher limits.

[slavic]

But if he would semi bluff, then we might as well make him pay.

I don't disagree and that's why my answer was to three bet.

In this example however once Joe raises and we 3 bet, we have overstated the strength of our hand to the point that we can not accurately gauge Joe's check on the river. Joe will check with a wide range of hands, and the ones that call us on the river beat us more than we beat them. What we do have is an accurate feel of his bet on the river. If he bets we are almost certainly beat. We can fold.

The net is that we have made exactly the same number of bets as MK’s example, but 3 betting comes out ahead in those cases were the semi-bluff raise happens and the antihero does not improve to a calling hand and does not fire a last bullet. This is were the profit in the play comes from. It’s only a fraction of a bet over time but it does add up.

Here are the cases:

1)Anti Hero check raises the turn on a pure bluff – We 3 bet – Anti Hero folds.

2)Anti Hero check raises AK on the turn – We 3 bet – he may fold he may call, he will almost never bet the river without catching a K (or better).
a)AK gets no better and he checks the river
b)AK catches a K and he leads the river
c)AK catches a K and checks.

3)Anti-Hero semibluffs, we 3 bet he improves to a straight or flush and leads the river.

4)Anti-Hero semibluffs, we 3 bet he improves to a straight or flush and checks the river.

5)Anti-Hero semibluffs, we 3 bet he does not improve and checks the river.

6)Anti-Hero has two pair and check raises, we 3 bet on the river he checks

7)Anti-Hero has a set and check raises, we 3 bet, he 4 bets, we fold.

[Rick Nebiolo]

Ed,

Great job! I bookmarked your page and will keep tabs.

I got 7 out of 8 correct and would of gone for the reraise on the turn but I think it is close (as you did).

Do fix the section titles (i.e., Hand 1, Hand 2) since it is really one hand and eight parts.

Best of luck,

~ Rick

[Ed Miller]

The problem, and it is a real one (especially online) is when you get 4-bet by two pair. That's really bad. 3-betting is CLEARLY the best play if you will be 4-bet only by a set. But before you guys go 3-betting everyone with position, make sure you think there is almost no chance your opponent will 4-bet you with two pair... because if he will, then 3-betting is too reckless.

The sides are close... and I had only heard people posting the advantages of 3-betting, not the disadvantages.

[blackaces13]

[ QUOTE ]
The problem, and it is a real one (especially online) is when you get 4-bet by two pair. That's really bad. 3-betting is CLEARLY the best play if you will be 4-bet only by a set.


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, I would be somewhat more inclined to raise online, but call live. Online people check-raise the turn a lot more often with trashy stuff.


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this contradictory? You say that the problem, particularly online, is being 4 bet with a 2 pair which is a terrible spot to be in. However, you also say that you'd be more inclined to 3 bet online. Why raise a likely 2 pair if you fear being 4 bet with it more online?

[Ed Miller]

Isn't this contradictory? You say that the problem, particularly online, is being 4 bet with a 2 pair which is a terrible spot to be in. However, you also say that you'd be more inclined to 3 bet online. Why raise a likely 2 pair if you fear being 4 bet with it more online?

Hrmm.. fair enough. It looks like I did contradict myself.

Here's the point:

If your opponent would 4-bet you with only two pair, that should make you less inclined to 3-bet.

If your opponent would check-raise often without at least two pair, that should make you more inclined to 3-bet.

Sometimes both are true... in that case, you just have to decide for yourself which is more important.

[Vehn]

are you aware your profile picture has been broken for like months?

[slavic]

The sides are close... and I had only heard people posting the advantages of 3-betting, not the disadvantages.

Ed - I didn't call it out in great detail but 3 betting has other problems. If your foe is a pure bluffer, 3 betting is clearly wrong.

The other two cases that put you in a pickle is when a player will 4 bet with a lesser hand, or will semibluff the turn, call your bet, miss their flush but notice a straight hit or a strange card paired or their dog likes grape jelly and fire one on the river.

Their is also a problem versus better opponents who know you will 3 bet position, because they are going to 4 bet you.

[Duke]

[ QUOTE ]
he thinks checkraising some guy twice on two consecutive streets is just the funniest thing on earth, and he is not alone.

[/ QUOTE ]

Some players, pros even, won't play 3-6 live. They can't handle the swings.

~D

[Vehn]

lmfao

[CrackerZack]

What a wonderful morning this has become laughing hysterically at this comment. Well done.

[ericd]

This is clearly the best teaching presentation I've encountered (not just poker). I hope this leads to a second book with an interactive CD included. The clear, consise and logical manner you write is outstanding.

Eric

[blackaces13]

No, I wasn't. How does it become broken anyway? It comes in fine on my computer but I guess no one else can see it. Should be gone now anyway.

[Festus22]

Nice work dude - great to see someone actually take the ball and run with it like you have.

Regarding the quiz, I somehow managed to get all 8 right and frankly thought it was very easy. I consider myself a fair (at best) holdem player and am curious where you consider questions like these in the holdem "knowledge" scale. I think this is basic stuff. Am I correct in assuming the average holdem player wouldn't fair well?

[Ed Miller]

Am I correct in assuming the average holdem player wouldn't fair well?

Ya, I'm not sure, but I think a lot of people would get the question about why to raise with aces wrong, the questions about how many outs and what percentage you improve wrong, and the hand-reading question wrong.

Honestly, the intended audience is not as knowledgable as you guys are. You know more than 95%+ of all hold 'em players, even if you do fold too much. /images/graemlins/smile.gif It is intended to be challenging to an average intermediate-level player. At least that's what I thought was most appropriate.

Next month's hand might be a bit tougher for you know-it-alls. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Philuva]

I would hope to have AA in a 10 way capped pot every hand.

Now, I will not win as many pots in a 10 way capped pot vs. a 2 or 3 player pot with my AA, but I will win more money in the 10-way pot. Poker is all about winning more money, not more pots.

Which you rather have:
1. a 50% chance to win a $20 pot.
2. a 20% chance to win a $200 pot.

I am taking option 2 every time.

You raise to get more money in the pot and you have the best hand. If people cold call, even better.

[sublime]

7 out of 8. I did it this AM, but I am almost positve I missed question 7. Ohh well, lol to think I never even played poker 3 months ago /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Thanks for all your time Ed /images/graemlins/smile.gif

ps
Hurry up with the book /images/graemlins/smile.gif

EDIT: Yup it was #7. Damn, I am 2 passive! Any hot poker-chicks wanna spank me and teach me a lesson?

[DcifrThs]

7/8.

i like the reasoning for calling the turn but given his trickiness i put him on a draw more than a made hand here. i feel he'd be more aggressive with a pair on the flop and i'd like to make him pay huge for his draw and trickiness on the turn. yes he can play back but i'm prepared to call him there and maybe on the river.

i reraise the turn here despite what the quiz says /images/graemlins/smile.gif
-Barron

[stir]

Your writing style is excellent. Clear, concise, logical and straight forward. I enjoyed your first article and will look forward to the the next. Thanks.

[Ed Miller]

For those interested, you can find June's column at http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/index.shtml . I won't announce the column anymore... new ones should be posted around the 1st of each month.

[CrackerZack]

This example looks real familiar.

[beerbandit]

Nice work again Greg. I don't mind you posting this at all. I am far to lazy to remember this every month.

Thanks,

Beer

[MaxPower]

Question 2 is based on a post that Sklansky made on here. I remember emailing this to you about a year ago.

I can't seem to find it in the archives. Too bad because it was a good one.

Good column.

[slavic]

Ed -

Since we are playing this hand in cali, were is my option to fling cards. Insult the floor and declare my "Greekness"?

[Ed Miller]

You can find the original Sklansky post here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=94072&page=&view=&sb= 5&o=&vc=1) and David's answers here (http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=94168&page=&view=&sb= 5&o=&vc=1).

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]
For those interested, you can find June's column at http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/index.shtml . I won't announce the column anymore... new ones should be posted around the 1st of each month.

[/ QUOTE ]

Great column..

[astroglide]

"Raising mediocre players who have limped in middle position, with JT offsuit on the button is barely wrong if you play well. Call it a two dollar mistake."

i totally disagree with that

[JSD]

Ed, are you a fellow 'tute alum? I always suspected there were a few around the board. '96 myself.

Great column, BTW. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[Ed Miller]

Ed, are you a fellow 'tute alum? I always suspected there were a few around the board. '96 myself.

8 and 6-2, '00

There are others lurking around too.. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Great column, BTW.

Thanks. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[felson]

6-2, '97.

Thanks for a great column!

[Sloats]

Thank you very much.


2 & 3. I truly suck at this poker thing....

[kem]

[ QUOTE ]

Ed, are you a fellow 'tute alum? I always suspected there were a few around the board. '96 myself.

Great column, BTW. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps we should all change our location to 77 Mass Ave? Sort of a secret handshake? /images/graemlins/smile.gif

6-2 & 18, '00

[Porcupine]

Great column Ed! Love the interaction and well explained reasoning.

I interested on others thoughts about this:
Since "Being suited is crucial to the strength of this hand", is correct to raise with Axs? If not, just suited A 10,J,Q,K?

[Ed Miller]

Since "Being suited is crucial to the strength of this hand", is correct to raise with Axs? If not, just suited A 10,J,Q,K?

In that situation, I'd certainly raise down to at least about A7s. Lower than that, and the decision becomes relatively close.

[astroglide]

nobody has a comment about this? i think raising limpers w/JTo is downright bad.

[Ed Miller]

nobody has a comment about this? i think raising limpers w/JTo is downright bad.

It can't be THAT bad. If calling on the button with JTo is right (and it probably is) then raising can never be that big a mistake. It is never a BIG preflop mistake to raise with a hand that you should just call with.

[MaxPower]

Do you think calling with JTo on the Button against 4 limpers is a +EV play? If so, then raising can't be a very big error. I don't know if $2 is correct, but I would think it is much less then 1/4 of a BB.

[astroglide]

usually, no. with 4 limpers JTo is often hopelessly dominated, and the straight value is not nearly enough. i think it's worth noting that i have around a 25% vpip.