Unimproved AQ. How would you play this flop?

[Inthacup]

Good 15-30 game. Several soft spots. My read going into this hand: Opponent in this hand plays straightforward. When he opens the action, he usually comes in with a raise, doesn't seem to be too tricky or bluff too much.



Folded to opponent in LP, who raises, folded to me in BB and I 3-bet with A /images/graemlins/heart.gifQ /images/graemlins/diamond.gif. I consider just calling(as suggested in Clark's AQ hand), but 3-betting would give me a lot of info here. If he has a PP 10 or higher, he'll cap. If he has AK he'll cap and anything else, he'll just call. He calls.

Flop: K /images/graemlins/diamond.gifJ /images/graemlins/club.gif7 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif

I bet, he raises.

How do you proceed from here?



Cup

[exist]

based on your description of your opponent you put him on at least a pair here? i don't think there's any benefit to raising since you have to act first next round. call and see the turn.

if the turn brings a /images/graemlins/diamond.gif take it to the river. a T is an easy CR. an A is an interesting card cause he would expect it might help you. if you think he'd bet, CR him. if not bet it yourself.

[_2000Flushes]

I'd be careful about putting LP on high pair only if he caps preflop. It hasn't been uncommon recently at 15-30 (at least online) for AA or KK to call for 3 bets preflop and hope for more engagement later. I wouldn't rule out AK or middle PP either. If it's HU to you in the BB, I like the three-bet, especially if you put him on a steal. (Also, how LP?)

Post-flop, I also like the bet. The raise probably means you're screwed, and I'd lay it down. You could check call the other streets hoping for Ax, but I feel like I've lost a lot of bets doing that. If you've seen the player loosen way up when trying to steal or when defending against a steal, I might be prone to call him down. But you say he's pretty straight forward. I'd lay it down.

-2kF

[Garbonzo]

This looks like an example from Middle Limit Poker's "playing over cards" section.

It looks like A-K or J-J to me, neither is so good for you. Folding to the raise is probably correct, it looks like a 10 may be the only out. An ace on the turn would not give me much confidence.

That being said, if he is straightforward, calling his pre-flop bet and checking to him on the flop might make more sense.

[Nate tha' Great]

Call the bet and see what the turn brings.

I'm very surprised that people advocate folding here. A typical opponent at Party 15/30 will open-raise in LP with a wide range of hands, and raise a flop bet with position with a similarly wide range of hands. It is most likely that he has a pair of kings or a pair of jacks; he might also have a draw, or even something like a small pair.

Folding would be bad. You're not far from getting proper odds on your gutshot alone, considering the potential you have to make two or three big bets from him if it hits. An ace will usually give you the best hand, and a queen will give you the best hand more often than you'd think. And the second nut flush draw gives you a bit of extra equity. I think you have somewhere in the neighborhood of 7 outs.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
This looks like an example from Middle Limit Poker's "playing over cards" section.



[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like another reader of Middle Limit Poker is advocating weak-tight play.

[Inthacup]

, if he is straightforward, calling his pre-flop bet and checking to him on the flop might make more sense.


Sorry for being vague on straightforward. He's straightforward in a Party 15-30 kinda way. If he raises preflop, and it's checked to him on the flop, he's going to bet. Raising in LP, I put him on a playable hand. Nothing more. Everyone's folded to him, he has something he wants to play, he's gonna raise.

The flop raise is a pretty tyical play with a wide range of hands HU w/ position. He could easily make this play with anything he wants to see the turn/river on. I don't see this move as tricky. I've seen it so much at this level. It could also be made for value, but that is yet to be determined. At that point in the hand, I put him on Kx, Jx, a straight or flush draw or possibly a PP of some sort, but I think that's unlikely. Him having JJ is about as likely as him having 22. IMO, a straightforward player would call the flop and raise the turn with JJ.



Cup

[Steve Giufre]

Definitely call the flop bet I agree. Folding here looks way too weak after your three bet, and you dont want your oppenents thinking they can easily push you around like this. I take one off and see if I improve. If you make the gutshot on turn, I would lead out. If you make the ace, I would check and expect to call him with the best hand if he bets. If you make the queeen, it's a little bit trickier, and I think it would be close between check calling, check folding, or betting and folding to a raise. I would probably bet and fold to a raise. If you dont improve I would muck and go on to the next hand.

[Inthacup]

I'm very surprised that people advocate folding here.

I am too. I think it's the worst of the 3 options. After dismissing the fold, I had to decide between calling and 3-betting. Why do you think calling is best?



Cup

[Clarkmeister]

I'd 3-bet. I think this flop raise given this action smells an awful lot like he's testing you out with his medium strength hand. I give you a decent chance to take it down on the turn with a bet if you 3-bet.

[Nate tha' Great]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm very surprised that people advocate folding here.

I am too. I think it's the worst of the 3 options. After dismissing the fold, I had to decide between calling and 3-betting. Why do you think calling is best?

Cup

[/ QUOTE ]

The instinct to call probably comes from playing mostly in the Party 6-max games, in which it's almost impossible to push someone off any kind of made hand (not that he'll always have a made hand here). Although the Party 15/30 full table games play very aggressively, I have noticed that people are more willing to fold. If my table image was good at the time, and my opponent was a thinking player, then I'd sometimes 3-bet, but my suspicion is that it probably isn't the right play in a generic situation in this particular game.

[Inthacup]

The instinct to call probably comes from playing mostly in the Party 6-max games

Fair enough.


I decided to 3-bet. I felt that his range of hands could be large which means that I could be ahead or be drawing live to 7+ outs. By just calling, I give him control of the hand which could put me in a tough decision later in the hand.


He calls my flop 3-bet.


Turn: Q /images/graemlins/heart.gif

What's your line for the rest of the hand and why?


Cup

[Clarkmeister]

"What's your line for the rest of the hand "

I bet as I think I have the best hand. If he raises, I am calling as I may still have the best hand, and could have plenty of outs if trailing. If he calls, I am betting the river.

[Inthacup]

Thanks for the reply Clarkmeister. We took the same line until the river. I bet the turn and he called. River was a low brick.

I checked with the intention of calling. At the time, I was a little unsure of the best play. I thought I was ahead but considering the range of hands I put him on, he wouldn't call with a draw, he might call with a J and would call with a Q, K or better. I wasn't overly concerned with facing a raise, but it wasn't something I was hoping for either.

I decided to check hoping to show weakness, inducing him to take a stab at the pot. From his perspective, he has to think that I don't have a K given my play. So, I checked, he bet, I called and he showed A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif8 /images/graemlins/diamond.gif for the busted flush draw.

In my experience, betting and check/calling has seemed to be about the same in terms of getting an extra BB in situations like this. I think I naturally lean towards check-calling for not wanting to face a raise.

If you could put it in percentages of how often you would bet vs. check/call, what would it be?

I don't have any stats to back this up, but I'd say mine is pretty close to 50% bet/50% check call. Is this something I should work on?



Cup

[Garbonzo]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This looks like an example from Middle Limit Poker's "playing over cards" section.



[/ QUOTE ]

It looks like another reader of Middle Limit Poker is advocating weak-tight play.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know much.

I wasn't aware that the advice in this book is considered "weak tight"? Is that a unanimous review or controversial? Maybe someone could point me to an old thread that debates the merits of this book and his "weak tight" advice?

Thanks Nate, seriously, your 1 line comment will lead to the improvement of my game.

[DcifrThs]

Good post cup, i like to see these common situations and try to figure out how best to play them.

since he plays "straightforward" i'll assume you mean like a normal partier at 15/30. this means his flop raise actually means much less of a hand than a call. if he called i'd check fold because to me that seems to mean he's got a hand he wants to trap you with and isn't sophisticated enough for the call the flop with position raise the turn with nothing kind of play.

given that i'd assume after his raise that i had the best hand and he was pushing a draw on this draw laden flop. he could have easily raised first in with QcTc, AdXd, and of course AJo and pairs to which you're behind.

on a quick side note...i don't think its a good idea to eliminate AA-TT or AK b/c he didn't cap. remember, hes got you out of position for the whole hand with two big bet rounds later, why would he give up the strength of his hand early...unless you know him and that is your read in which case i defer to it.

back to the hand. if either a q or an a falls on the turn (or even if one doesn't) i'm betting the turn. his raise looks so much like a party draw that i'm loath to give a free card to a likely worse hand on the turn just because he called my flop 3 bet.

so i 3bet the flop and bet the turn.

the river is a little tricky, if either a queen or an ace hits on the river of the turn (unless it was the Ad) i'd highly suspect i have the best hand and bet the turn and POSSIBLY c-r or c-c the river. but i'd have to have a line on his post flop play to do anything other than bet the turn and river (default improvement play).

without ANY improvement by the river i'd have to take a new line. i'd check and let him bet his busted draw if he JUST CALLED my turn bet. i've taken down similar pots to this one by check calling an unimproved river AQo if the turn and river both brick. his raise and call call should i bet the turn ould signal a draw to me and if he gets lucky and pairs up on the river with the blank then so be it.

the REAL question come up as to what to do if he raises the turn. since id bet out on the turn he may raise and i'd be prepared to call the raise and check and fold unimproved or check call improved. possibly check fold if q hits because that turn raise after a flop raise and call is unlikely tobe a draw from a "straightforward" player. those people raise draws early and call late. rarely do they turn semibluff with those draws.

well, its off to see what others think and what really happened.

good post though, cup
-Barron