I flopped the joint [Archive] - Two Plus Two Older Archives

SoCalPat

04-30-2004, 06:20 AM

There's been some discussion about whether or not to slowplay strong hands on the flop. Here's one for debate.

This was easily my hand of the night. Hand history doesn't show it, but the button waited a long time before making a decision on the flop. In hindsight, it was probably the only thing he did right in the hand.

UTG+1 is a complete clown who has pulled off some amazing miracle hands with trash (he limped with 25 off and called two raises cold and took down my flopped set of 8s by going runner-runner for a straight), yet limps with AA. In the time I've been editing this, he three-bet with 72s. I have no respect for his raises.

I have no idea about MP2, except that good players don't come to a 2/4 table with only $13, as s/he did.

Paradise Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 9/images/graemlins/spade.gif, 9/images/graemlins/heart.gif.
Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, UTG+2 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 3-bets, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button calls, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (15.50 SB) 4/images/graemlins/club.gif, 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, 9/images/graemlins/diamond.gif (5 players) 
BB checks, Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, Button checks.

SoCalPat says to this: Are you freakin' kidding me? Half the table is in for 3 bets and there's no overpair out there? I was begging for the button to bet, and he sure took his sweet time deciding to fold.

Turn: (7.75 BB) 2/images/graemlins/club.gif (5 players) 
BB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 raises, MP2 calls, Button 3-bets, BB folds, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, ($4)

MP2 is all-in at this point, and it's pretty obvious what our friend on the button has.

River: (24 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif
Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, Button calls.
(3 players) 

Final Pot: 24 BB
Main Pot: 24 BB, between MP2, Button and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (24 BB).

Results in white below: 
Hero shows 9s 9h (full house, nines full of fours).
MP2 shows Ad 5h (one pair, fours).
Button shows 5s 4s (three of a kind, fours).
Outcome: Hero wins 24 BB.

sublime

04-30-2004, 06:50 AM

You should have bet the flop, Pat. This pot is HUGE and they are going to come along for the ride anyways (see the turn and your description) You left some change on the table.

I also wonder what others say about the pre flop play.

sthief09

04-30-2004, 07:17 AM

I would've raised this UTG.

I see nothing wrong with your flop check, given all the preflop action. Before I saw the action, I'd say there was about a 0% chance that this flop would get checked through. You may have missed some bets here, there's no risk of giving free cards, since an overpair is only drawing to 2 outs.

So while I see nothing wrong with the flop check, personally I bet the flop, then check-raise the turn if someone raises me. You will win a lot of chips and no one will put you on either a 4 or 99 until you raise the turn.

sublime

04-30-2004, 07:36 AM

Of course you were expecting a flop bet behind you, but with maniacs like this bet/raise is alomost certain.

SoCalPat

04-30-2004, 01:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You should have bet the flop, Pat. This pot is HUGE and they are going to come along for the ride anyways (see the turn and your description) You left some change on the table.

I also wonder what others say about the pre flop play.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about leaving change on the table, but I can't for the life of me understand why the button or MP2 didn't bet (in hindsight, it's clear why MP2 didn't bet). As long as he hesitated, I knew he had either a 4 or the case 9. No one would put him on a 4 just because he was last to act, and his kicker isn't so hot either.

PF play ... do you mean calling two cold with 99, or not raising UTG. With respect to the former, I know UTG+1 doesn't have much of a hand, so I treated it as just calling one raise (from MP2).

Raising PF? To me 99 is a medium pair, and shouldn't be raised with UTG. That said, my opinion on 99 changes with the wind.

Thanks for the response.

sublime

04-30-2004, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
You're right about leaving change on the table, but I can't for the life of me understand why the button or MP2 didn't bet (in hindsight, it's clear why MP2 didn't bet). As long as he hesitated, I knew he had either a 4 or the case 9. No one would put him on a 4 just because he was last to act, and his kicker isn't so hot either.

PF play ... do you mean calling two cold with 99, or not raising UTG. With respect to the former, I know UTG+1 doesn't have much of a hand, so I treated it as just calling one raise (from MP2).

Raising PF? To me 99 is a medium pair, and shouldn't be raised with UTG. That said, my opinion on 99 changes with the wind.

Thanks for the response.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its the strogest mid-pocket pair. I understand though, I am reluctant to raise under the gun also. I am still in the habit of getting used to raising with a hand like this so out of position. I guess a good way to look at is you are forcing all the Ax limp-shiters to pay premium price, and also those that will call with anything from the blinds.

As for the flop, it looks like bet/check(hope for bet) is borderline. I guess like everything it depends on the table.