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t_perkin
04-29-2004, 11:15 PM
Ok the Doc had left by the end, so here are the results from todays late SnG:

1: t_perkin 2+2 (Akureyri), $72.00 (40%)
2: dr. jekyl (Kennebunk), $54.00 (30%)
3: SimonDiamond (Redditch), $36.00 (20%)
4: Wadd (Winona), $18.00 (10%)
5: DrPhysic (San Antonio),
6: d9090 (Chinese Camp ),
7: FloppedFlush (Alexandria),
8: Walstib (Washington),
9: MobyDick (København),
10: JellybeanDC (Leesburg),
11: skaboomizzy (Tampa),
12: NotMitch (Somerville),
13: KURN (Cranston),
14: thomastem (Marengo),
15: Shub314 (Victoria),
16: Glorfindel (Rivendell),
17: heyrocker (Chicago),
18: codewarrior (Mentor),

I was pretty lucky when it got to 4-5 players which is when it really counted. But I don't think I played too badly. I have a couple of hands to post. But will do so later.

Tim

skaboomizzy
04-29-2004, 11:32 PM
I have GOT to know what you had in that early hand when the flop came all diamonds and you went all-in.

Simon Diamond
04-29-2004, 11:34 PM
Three SNG Series leaderboards - three European leaders.

Some times actions speak louder than words.

Simon /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Walstib
04-30-2004, 01:37 AM
Been lurking for a few months and decided to play in both 2+2 games tonight. Great competition, had a great time. I intend to come back for more lessons.

Congrats to the winners and thanks to those that set this up.

Walstib

DrPhysic
04-30-2004, 06:10 AM
Thanks for posting tim. I was having a lousy night, went to watch the end of the Kings/Mavericks basketball game then went to bed.

10th and 5th not very good tonight. There was one hand I did enjoy immensely however. Remember one that the board was all black AKKxx? I went all in, and you folded? I had Q3 of diamonds. Absolute bust. If you'd just let me steal in the first place, I wouldn't have to go to such extreme measures to get your blinds. (and 300 or 400 more as I
remember.)

Oh well, nuther game next week.

Doc

t_perkin
04-30-2004, 07:09 AM
Yeah I was gonna post this hand anyway for a bit of discussion:

Hand 21 (blinds 15/30)

I am UTG with Ad Kh and 3BB raise to 90

Skaboom UTG+1 raises to 150

all fold to me

I flat call. I figure he may well have PP here - QQ, KK, AA maybe AK, outside AQs or JJ
I certainly don't want to push in here, but not worth folding yet so I flat call.

*** FLOP *** [7d 2d Kd]

Woohoo! I could not ask for anything better really. He could still have me beat with AA and very outside KK, but I have almost all other offerings beat, plus I have an untainted nut flush draw.
I am certain he will bet at this so I go for the check raise.


He bets 450 and I raise all in and he folds.

Now judging from the fact that you want to know what I had I would say that you either had AK (obv. no diamond) or AA (scared of KK or AdQd?). But I never guess right (doesn't bode well for my poker career /images/graemlins/smile.gif).

Now what I would like to know is whether I should have tried to extract some more money and how?

This is an area of my game that I am trying to improve. I feel that sometimes I don't make as much as I should when I have a good or great hand. This comes from following the NL SnG mantra of TAKE IT DOWN NOW too closely.
Playing O8 has made me realise that it is a hole in my game.

Tim

skaboomizzy
04-30-2004, 07:31 AM
Based on the amount of your raise then calling my re-raise I had put you on A-<face card> suited before the flop. The diamond flop and your check-raise had me convinced you had the nut flush. If there'd just been two diamonds on the flop, I'd have put you all-in.

I had the two black aces.

William
04-30-2004, 07:43 AM
If you'd just let me steal in the first place, I wouldn't have to go to such extreme measures to get your blinds. (and 300 or 400 more as I remember)

We'll soon be chopping those long fingers that are always trying to grab other players blinds /images/graemlins/grin.gif

William

pokerexplorer.com
04-30-2004, 08:31 AM
i like sitngo

t_perkin
04-30-2004, 09:15 AM
phew. glad I made you fold that one /images/graemlins/smile.gif /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Two dimes says:

Ad Kh 43.13%
As Ac 56.87%

(at the flop Kd 7d 2d)

So you aren´t a huge fav. Def. better than if I had pushed in before the flop where you would be 92% fav. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Sorry mate

Tim

("mate" means "bud" in english)

PrayingMantis
04-30-2004, 09:30 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I had the two black aces.


[/ QUOTE ]

WOW!! I don't know what to say, except why did you think Tim would check-raise you all-in with the nut flush??

No offence, but I think you've made an extremely problematic fold, to say the least.

t_perkin
04-30-2004, 09:47 AM
I think you have the PF play a bit confused:

me UTG makes it 3BB
Ska raises to 150
I call

Flop I check raise.

But I am inclined to agree. I am unlikely to check raise all in with nut flush, unless I am being really tricky.

And I am uinlikely to have KK as I would almost certainly reraise PF.

Tim

PrayingMantis
04-30-2004, 09:51 AM
[ QUOTE ]
I think you have the PF play a bit confused

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, you are right, I've noticed that myself right after posting, and deleted the part about the pre-flop play.

However, this doesn't change anything in my view about the post-flop play, which I think is very questionable, and was the reason I wrote my post.

DrPhysic
04-30-2004, 03:53 PM
...", said the expert theif.

skaboomizzy
04-30-2004, 05:01 PM
I've replayed this hand about 100 times in my mind today at work, and here's what I came up with.

/images/graemlins/spade.gif My preflop re-raise was too weak. I probably should've made it around 500 to go. Although with A-K, I'm not so sure that Tim would throw it away for that amount. That he called my small re-raise led me to put him on A-face suited. Which leads us to...

/images/graemlins/spade.gif ... the flop. The all-diamond flop scared me because of my earlier read. When it was checked to me, I had a bit of a brain freeze I guess. I didn't want to give a free card in case he WAS on a draw. When the check-raise hit after my bet of 450, I thought about it and decided that it was just the kind of play *I* would be tempted to make if I hit the nut flush on the flop.

Bottom line, I'm pretty sure I out-thought myself. If you'll excuse me, I'm off to get my WEAK-TIGHT tattoo on my forehead.

William
04-30-2004, 07:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
...", said the expert theif.


[/ QUOTE ]

Who? Me? /images/graemlins/blush.gif

William /images/graemlins/grin.gif

t_perkin
04-30-2004, 10:10 PM
To be honest I would and I think many would play this exactly the same you played it. And those who wouldn't play it this way may wish they could.

Scary flops are called scary flops for a reason - they give an advantage to the player with the weaker hand.

I think in the long run you played this hand just fine. Don't beat yourself up, you were only giving up 13% on a tricky hand. We call 9% a coin flip around here (which admittedly I am starting to disagree with). 13% in the very early stages is not a massive leak in a SnG.

Tim

Profit
04-30-2004, 11:54 PM
i don't think i lay this down with AA, heads up. With more opponents it is much easier to fold. Maybe it's not proper thinking, but in this situation i would just be thinking "no way did this guy just flop the nut flush heads up against me. Also, if he has the nuts, would he really put me all in? Take that with a grain of salt as the others who are giving advice are much the better player than myself.

By the way, i've been absent from the weekly SNG's. Its crunch time in my senior year, so you probably won't be seing me for another 3 weeks /images/graemlins/smile.gif. I know that break's simon's heart lol.

Simon Diamond
05-01-2004, 02:09 AM
I know that break's simon's heart lol.

That's okay mate, our running feud only sidetracked me from more important business.

I don't think the leaderboard has been posted - must be because they are embarrassed that an amateur like myself is top. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

Simon

PrayingMantis
05-01-2004, 03:52 AM
Hey Tim,

First, Congrats on winning the US game /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I'm starting to think maybe we should give up the idea about the USA vs. Europe (and rest of the world - [ROW]) game, since it's simply going to be nothing but a complete embarrassment for the Americans, and I really like these guys...

As for the AA hand - if you made your opponent fold his rockets, you definitely played it great, IMO. But I still think Skabbom's AA fold is bad. It's correct ONLY if both of his assesments are right: A. you have Ax of diamonds, AND, B. You will check-raise all-in with the nut-flush.

I think that in the far greater majority of the time, his opponent (here it's you) will call a PF raise, and then check-raise all-in on this specific flop, with hands that AA beat. Yes, he'll face KK or the nut-flush a few times, but overall, if he's folding here, it's absolutely minus EV in my view.

I don't think that looking at it as if he "only" gave 13% of advantage is the best way. He actually gave up EV of about +800 chips, in this specific pot. This is huge (I'm assuming you had about 1500T each in the start of the hand. You didn't specify).

There's also something to say about not playing it more aggressive on the flop to begin with, after it's checked to him. On such a dangarous flop, I would seriously consider pushing to begin with, with AA. Then, YOU will be facing a tough decision, since it's marginally -EV call for you, and not the nicest spot.

But I'd really like to read some more opinions on this hand. It is a very interesting one, and I think it should be discussed thoroughly.

skaboomizzy
05-01-2004, 08:40 AM
A few more mitigating factors:

I really respect you guys, you're all excellent players and this isn't in any way meant to be a dig or insult at you.

But in the early stages (first three or four orbits) of tournaments like KotZ or these SnGs, the play is very, very predictable. Usually a preflop raise takes down the pot. If it's called and the raiser bets again on the flop, it ends there a lot of the time as well. If it's re-raised pre-flop, it usually goes to the re-raiser.

When Tim called my re-raise pre-flop, I knew he had SOMETHING. He's not just splashing around with a junk hand. As I said, somehow I came up with A-face suited for his hand.

The flop is frightening. After he check-raised, I had three likely outcomes.

1) He flopped his flush right there. I don't think he'd push in that early without hitting the nuts, we were both right around 1500 in chips to start the hand, and I don't believe anyone had yet busted out in either table. (about 60% likelihood)

2) He's got the A /images/graemlins/diamond.gif, he might just be trying to push me out. Nothing made yet, but he's got 9 outs. (30%)

3) He's got pocket Ks and has flopped a set and is willing to put his tournament on the line with that. I don't yet know what he's put me on yet, but he doesn't have me on A-A or a made flush. (10%)

The 450 bet of mine on the flop was designed to give me an escape if he pushed it in. If he folded, the pot was mine. If he called and a blank came on the turn, I probably would've moved him in. If he called and a diamond came on the turn, I was gonna be out of the hand.

I admit I mis-read, but it wasn't by much. At best for me, in my mind he has 9 outs (in reality it was 11 with the two black kings). At worst for me, he's already made the nuts and I'm drawing virtually dead.

If it's later in the tournament, I call. If I have him outchipped to the point that I can survive losing the hand, I call. If there's only two diamonds on the flop, I call. But everything just kinda added up wrong for me on that hand, so I let it go and proceeded to play on with a stack of around 950 or so.

I'm not expecting everyone to say "Oh wow, he's right!" or anything. This is just a glimpse into my thought process on that one particular situation.

Edit to add: It was a great bet by Tim. Credit where it's due.

PrayingMantis
05-01-2004, 10:10 AM
[ QUOTE ]
But in the early stages (first three or four orbits) of tournaments like KotZ or these SnGs, the play is very, very predictable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know about the US games, but the Euro ones get pretty crazy real early /images/graemlins/grin.gif. Although I see what you mean.

[ QUOTE ]
1) He flopped his flush right there. I don't think he'd push in that early without hitting the nuts, we were both right around 1500 in chips to start the hand, and I don't believe anyone had yet busted out in either table. (about 60% likelihood)

2) He's got the A , he might just be trying to push me out. Nothing made yet, but he's got 9 outs. (30%)

3) He's got pocket Ks and has flopped a set and is willing to put his tournament on the line with that. I don't yet know what he's put me on yet, but he doesn't have me on A-A or a made flush. (10%)


[/ QUOTE ]

About these three possible outcoumes, I think I would be giving them completely different probablity values.The probablity that he has flopped the flush is very very low, considering the fact you read him as having a real hand PF (that leaves you with AQd, maybe AJd, what else? Each of these has only *one* way of "having" [due to the suitedness]). If it was just any two diamonds, the probability would have been higher.

The more important thing, is that check-raising all-in with the nut-flush, is exactly *not* predictable. It is a very tricky move, that could be done by a plyaer who played very LAG until that point, maybe, and is trying to make it look like another steal.

KK: He has only 3 ways of holding the KK. Low probablity, and again, I'm not sure that's the move I would see with KKK on this flop.

Most probable is that he's holding the Ad and I'm really trying not to read it backwards. I believe AdKx is pretty probable. Of course, I can't tell you I would be putting Tim on that one at the heat of action. It's just what I'm thinking now. In this scenario, it's a clear call, for me at least.

Well, you made your decision, and I respect it. Yet, to summerize it, the fact that, as you say, it's a very predictable tight PF game, is, IMO, not a good excuse for a fold here, but on the contrary: this kind of play should narrow very much the range of hands your opponent (any opponent) is holding, and therefore - diminish significantly the possibility he's beating you here.

Again, I would be very happy to read some more opinions.

skaboomizzy
05-01-2004, 03:13 PM
[ QUOTE ]
About these three possible outcoumes, I think I would be giving them completely different probablity values.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the wonderful thing about poker... so many different ways to read a hand, and so many different outcomes. /images/graemlins/grin.gif

I guess I should be complimented that you think the check-raise with the nuts is a "tricky play", because it's one of the first options that would cross my mind if I hit the nuts on the flop. We all tend to project our own thoughts and biases onto the actions of others, and I think that's what I did here. Will I do it next time? Well, that'll depend on the situation.

Anyway, I love reading other thoughts and responses on this situation... this is turning into quite a fun discussion.