What did I do wrong?

[JMP]

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter (http://www.selachian.com/tools/bisonconverter/hhconverter.cgi)

Preflop: Hero is Button with A/images/graemlins/club.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (7 SB) T/images/graemlins/club.gif, K/images/graemlins/club.gif, 2/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(7 players) </font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, MP2 folds, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 folds.

Turn: (5 BB) 6/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(3 players) </font>
UTG checks, <font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises</font>, UTG folds, <font color="CC3333">MP1 3-bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero caps</font>, MP1 calls.

River: (13 BB) T/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(2 players) </font>
<font color="CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, <font color="CC3333">Hero raises $2 (All-In)</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 17 BB
<font color="#990066">Main Pot: 17 BB, between Hero and MP1.</font> &gt; <font color="white">Pot won by MP1 (17 BB).</font>

Results in white below: <font color="white">
MP1 shows 6c 6d (full house, sixes full of tens).
Hero shows Ac Qc (flush, ace high).
Outcome: MP1 wins 17 BB. </font>

Did I slowplay too long? I wanted to let hands with one /images/graemlins/club.gif continue to draw, and then start the raising on the turn. Was I wrong in thinking that? Thanks in advance.

-Josh

BTW, I've been reading the threads here for a couple of days now. I am really excited about what I am going to be able to learn from everyone.

[bwana devil]

at micro limits, to say i never slow play wouldnt be much of an exaggeration. simply put: don't slow play.

keep it as simple as possible. especially at first. if you think youve got best hand, bet. people will call you.

specificially on this hand, bet preflop. bet the flop.

that might have been enough to chase out MP1. dont know but MP1 was getting good odds to stay in at that point. you allowed MP1 to get great odds by not having to sacrifice anything for free cards.

welcome to the board. /images/graemlins/smile.gif

william

[SoCalPat]

Fer cryin' out loud, RAISE PREFLOP!

You have position. You have a hand that plays great both multi-way and heads up. You have gobs of players in the pot. By not raising here, you cost yourself 3 BBs. Minimum.

I would smooth call anything on the flop, then open up the heavy artillery on the turn, as you did.

[MicroBob]

i agree with socalpat....

you have to raise PF with this.
i think slow-playing on the flop is okay here....i know i probably would have done the same (but that still isnt the greatest evidence of whether or not it's correct).


i can see the argument for playing it fast....but if you're ever going to slow-play, it seems like this would be the right time.


66 most certainly was NOT getting correct odds to stay in, much less to bet it up front.
he had to hit runner-runner to beat you. he has to know that even if he does hit his trips he may very well still be behind.

[SoCalPat]

[ QUOTE ]
at micro limits, to say i never slow play wouldnt be much of an exaggeration. simply put: don't slow play.

keep it as simple as possible. especially at first. if you think youve got best hand, bet. people will call you.

specificially on this hand, bet preflop. bet the flop.

that might have been enough to chase out MP1. dont know but MP1 was getting good odds to stay in at that point. you allowed MP1 to get great odds by not having to sacrifice anything for free cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is horrible advice for this particular hand. Betting out will scare anyone without a club, and you'll probably get lesser hands like bottom or middle pair to fold, when you desperately want them to try and catch up.

The only thing you have to worry about here is someone holding 2 pair or a set, and they'll show plenty of aggression on their own.

You want as many people in the pot on the turn so you can collect as many expensive bets as possible from people who are drawing dead or near dead. And why on earth would I want to worry about "chasing" anyone out? At the very worst, I'm a 3.6-1 favorite over anyone who's sticking around.

You wouldn't want to do this with a lesser flush. But you've got the nuts, the betting on the flop indicates that no one else has much of a hand and if a free card falls, so what? If it gives them incentive to stick around for the river and a showdown, that'll more than make up for the missed 1/2 bet on the flop. Also, by not betting out, you give others the hope that their second- or third-best hands are good, and you want a raising war when they hit. Betting out reduces that possibility

The big mistake, as I noted earlier, is not raising the flop. A very expensive mistake, as it turned out.

[SoCalPat]

... this is what happens when I respond before reading the results.

My deepest sympathies for losing this hand. But I wouldn't have played it any other way. Raise PF and smooth call anything on the flop. Go great guns on the turn, and slow down only if the board pairs up and your being reraised.

[umdpoker]

i would bet that flop. anybody with a club is gonna call anyways. people at microlimits tend to always assume you are bluffing if you bet a flop like that. make them pay to find out. also, you make pocket pairs fold that don't have a club. oh yeah, raise preflop.

[RcrdBoy]

I think slow playing is a bad idea. At micro limits many people will call you down to the river with weak draws and bottom pair and a weak kicker. Often there is little reason to "trick" them into doing so.

Also, why didn't you raise PF? This is a hand I would raise in any position


-Mike

[RcrdBoy]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
at micro limits, to say i never slow play wouldnt be much of an exaggeration. simply put: don't slow play.

keep it as simple as possible. especially at first. if you think youve got best hand, bet. people will call you.

specificially on this hand, bet preflop. bet the flop.

that might have been enough to chase out MP1. dont know but MP1 was getting good odds to stay in at that point. you allowed MP1 to get great odds by not having to sacrifice anything for free cards.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is horrible advice for this particular hand. Betting out will scare anyone without a club, and you'll probably get lesser hands like bottom or middle pair to fold, when you desperately want them to try and catch up.

The only thing you have to worry about here is someone holding 2 pair or a set, and they'll show plenty of aggression on their own.

You want as many people in the pot on the turn so you can collect as many expensive bets as possible from people who are drawing dead or near dead. And why on earth would I want to worry about "chasing" anyone out? At the very worst, I'm a 3.6-1 favorite over anyone who's sticking around.

You wouldn't want to do this with a lesser flush. But you've got the nuts, the betting on the flop indicates that no one else has much of a hand and if a free card falls, so what? If it gives them incentive to stick around for the river and a showdown, that'll more than make up for the missed 1/2 bet on the flop. Also, by not betting out, you give others the hope that their second- or third-best hands are good, and you want a raising war when they hit. Betting out reduces that possibility

The big mistake, as I noted earlier, is not raising the flop. A very expensive mistake, as it turned out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that "don't slow play at micro limits" could ever be considered horrible advice.

I also don't think there is anything that could have prevented this suckout.


-Mike

[bisonbison]

Hmm. Raise preflop.

Flop is fine.

Turn is fine.

Why did you allow yourself to start the hand with $7.5? You've got to keep at least 12BB available.

Imagine if the board hadn't paired and someone held QJc You'd have missed a lot of easy action.


As for the slowplaying debate: On the flop, your position relative to the bettor sucks. I think calling is fine. If it was checked to you, I'd bet. If it was bet by an EP player and there were callers between, I'd raise.

I don't think this is typical fancy-play slowplaying, I think the flop play is fine.

[MicroBob]

"I also don't think there is anything that could have prevented this suckout."

raising PF may have done it.
the 66-guy might be less likely to bet into the raiser on the flop...and may have folded to hero's flop bet.

it's possible anyway.

passive-play PF encourages the suck-out artists to hang around longer.

the 66 guy is probably not thinking in terms of pot-odds...but he might think 'that guy raised, my 66 has no chance here'.
just a thought.

[bisonbison]

raising PF may have done it.
the 66-guy might be less likely to bet into the raiser on the flop...and may have folded to hero's flop bet.

Whether the hero raised preflop or not, he wants this guy to call a bet on the flop. MP1 needed runner runner to win. He got it. That's all.

Only a flopped set is a significant threat to the hero's flush, and even then, the hero is getting the best of it on every bet that goes into the pot before the board pairs.

Even if the guy was getting the right odds to call, and it'd be good if he folded, it's not a long-run disaster if he calls, because he doesn't make his hand often enough to make the situation unprofitable for the Hero.

[JMP]

The reason I started the hand with 7.5 was part of the reason I did not raise PF. After buying in at $25, I lost some of that. I then hit a string of hands, right before this one, that were all PF raising hands. Sure enough I raised all those hands PF(3-4 hands), and even called a couple of reraises. I completely missed on the flop, or had to fold the hand after not improving. Leaving me with the 7.50. I didn't think about rebuying, and was actually starting to get frustrated (yes, I was probably tilting). That led to the hand above.

After reading all of your posts, I realize that the PF raise was probably my biggest mistake. I appreciate all of your comments. Keep'em coming.

Josh

[bisonbison]

If you want to continue to play at a table, you're really going to want to keep your stack topped off at at least 12BB before every hand. It's basic to maximizing your expectation.

If this makes you feel like you'll tilt off that too or makes you worry about committing too much money, that's a separate issue.

[JMP]

Thanks for the advice. It was more of me not paying attention/tilting, than being worried about committing to much money.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I wanted to let hands with one (club) continue to draw, and then start the raising on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm too lazy to read all the replies. I just wanted to ask whether our Hero (cough) would chase a flush with J /images/graemlins/club.gif or lower on this monotone flop.

[HoldemOrFoldem]

Nothing... the odds of him beating you required him hitting on both the turn and the river, and he simply got lucky...

[Ralph Wiggum]

Don't tell someone he did nothing wrong, when he clearly misplayed his hand. If you really believe there's nothing wrong with how he played his hand, then I suggest you post a disclaimer when giving advice.

[JMP]

I wouldn't chase with the J /images/graemlins/club.gif (or any club for that matter) but I have seen people at PP do it a handful of times. I was trying to have as many people in for the BB's after the turn. If they folded then fine. If they didn't fold my plan was to cap the betting with as many callers that were willing to call.

In response to your other post...I admit I made a mistake. Which was most likely not raising PF as pointed out by others. Other than that, I was just wondering if letting other hands catch up was the right play.

[Puffin]

I agree with most of the people and would have raised preflop but otherwise i think the play is fine.

[Ralph Wiggum]

[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't chase with the J (or any club for that matter)

[/ QUOTE ]
Well if I had the A /images/graemlins/club.gif on that board with that pot, then I'd chase. /images/graemlins/grin.gif. I don't think the slowplay was much of a mistake, even though I probably would have just played it strong. Yeah, PF was a mistake (you live and learn).

[chief444]

Other than not raising pf, I don't really see anything wrong here. I agree that slowplaying at microlimits is generally not the best play. However in this case I don't think you want to make it 2-bets to four players left to act between you and MP1. If the bet came from an earlier position then I would raise. If I was in a blind or earlier position I would lead out. But given the situation, I don't think you flop play was wrong.

As bison said though...don't start a hand with such a small stack. Either stop where you are or rebuy.

[Raiser]

Nothing new here.

Raise pre flop.

And bisonbison brings up a great point that I was going to mention. That is, make sure you always start a hand with enough chips that you can cap every street (12 BB's). You'll rarely need all that ammo, but when you do need it, you'll be glad it's there.

[The_Eye]

Haven't looked at the other replies yet, but I'd say in general that was not a good idea to slowplay. That said, I get the feeling he would have called a raise and still ended up winning, but in general I'd say this illustrates the dangers of slowplaying.

[The_Eye]

[ QUOTE ]
Hmm. Raise preflop.

Flop is fine.

Turn is fine.

Why did you allow yourself to start the hand with $7.5? You've got to keep at least 12BB available.

Imagine if the board hadn't paired and someone held QJc You'd have missed a lot of easy action.


As for the slowplaying debate: On the flop, your position relative to the bettor sucks. I think calling is fine. If it was checked to you, I'd bet. If it was bet by an EP player and there were callers between, I'd raise.

I don't think this is typical fancy-play slowplaying, I think the flop play is fine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, after reading all of the replies this is what I meant to say above. /images/graemlins/laugh.gif

[Zetack]

As far as the short stacking it goes...it messes up my record keeping to rebuy, so I like to start off with enought chips that I rarely get in the position of having to top off.

The biggest problem with being down 7.5 BB's is not so much, you can't throw in 12 BBs (I'm trying to remember if I've ever been involved in a hand capped on every street) its that you get involved with a hand and lose say 6BBs. If you go to the river you can't get a rebuy before the start of the next hand...if you look down at your next hand and its AA you're gonna be really unhappy with your buck fifty left to play...

--Zetack