SNGs : Moving Up

[William]

We all started at the 10$ buy-in (perhaps some of us at the 5$ level, but, I hope, rapidly moved up to the 10$).

I often read that people want to play several hundred SNGs at one level. That way they can have a good idea of how they are doing and then decide if they are ready to move up to the next level.

I think this is rubbish.
Nobody needs 500 SNGs, or several months of play at the 10$ level to find out if they are ready or not. These levels are filled with bad players.If you are able to see that very quickly, you have what it's needed to move up. If you feel insicure, then stay at that level until you feel you are better than the competition. But once you've realized that, try the higher level a couple of times, just to feel how it is.

If you are able to win money at the 10$ level, the chances are that you will also do well at the next level and at the next one again as well.

So the only valuable excuse not to move up is your bankroll. But also here, it is not necessary to wait for what you mean is your comfort zone; nothing stops you from trying a 20$ every now and then when you have a little profit from the 10$ ones. If you don't cash, play some more 10's and then try again a 20. This way your bankroll will increase faster and you will be making more money sooner.

First times at a new level is always difficult, most of the time it is just psychological though. Nothing wrong in busting out early a few times. You can always win that buy-in back at the lower level and that way slowly get used to the higher one.

Remember. if you are among the winners at one level, you certainly have what it takes to succeed at the next level as well. No need to stay at the same level for months. And if you don't give it a shot, you'll never know.

Good luck to you all /images/graemlins/smile.gif

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[La Brujita]

I have a couple of thoughts on this matter as well:

1. If you are going to try and move up, play when it is most likely the games are soft: Friday and Saturday evenings.

2. As you increase in a level and the style of play changes, strategies will vary slightly. Keep this in mind.

3. In some sense I don't agree with William's basic point for the following reason/to the following extent: you need a certain amount of games to have a reasonable feeling as to whether you are winning because you are lucky or because you play well. 1 game isn't enough to make that determination and 500 may not be necessary, but I would say 100 is the bare minimum.

4. People need to examine the reasons they are playing these games, is it for pleasure, the psychological benefit of winning or purely for maximizing ev. There are plenty of good reasons to play.

5. All that being said, from all I have read on this forum, I think many/most of the posters here playing small games would do pretty well in bigger games.

[SossMan]

I don't understand the point of this post, William.
If a player has decided, for one reason or another, to stay at a certain level until they are comfortable moving up, what's the rush. Most players have the opposite problem.

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't understand the point of this post, William.
If a player has decided, for one reason or another, to stay at a certain level until they are comfortable moving up, what's the rush. Most players have the opposite problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reason for this post is that practically every day we have somebody asking if he should move up.

To me it apears like they are scared and are seeking some kind of reasurance from other players to go to the next level.
It is often obvious that they will do well if they move up, but now that they have been winning for some time at the lower level, it feels somehow uncomfortable to try the next step.

This is of course normal, but my point is that it doesn't need to be like "now I have this bankroll and it should be enough to move up, so I jump".

Moving up in levels should have a period of time where you play at both levels. The one you are currently playing at and the one you are willing to move up to. This way it will be easier to make the transition, and when you feel you have a good grip on the high level, you can let go the lower one.

William

[codewarrior]

I agree with William on this point. There should be a transitionary phase where you play a regular level, and a higher level semi-regularly. To this I would add an occaisional stab at the next level yet. Built a big bank? Take a stab at a $50 or $100 as a treat some Friday or Saturday night.

[PrayingMantis]

I believe part of the problem people are having regarding moving up in SNGs, comes from confusing it with the concept of "moving up" in limit ring games. Taking a stab in a higher buy-in, in limit, when you're not fullly ready or bankrolled, can be somewhat dangarous. However, doing some trials in higher buy-in SNGs can be a very good idea to see where you stand, without risking much at all.

Since most of the theoretical advice refers to "moving up" in terms of limit ring games, it's not surprising that people are applying the same criteria for SNGs, and are very concerned about it.

Maybe we should find a new name for "moving up" in SNGs, to distinguish it from the limit ring "moving up"? How about "buying up" maybe (with the connotation of "buy-in")? /images/graemlins/grin.gif

[Stagemusic]

William.

I agree 100% with what you have said here although I do have some qualifiers. Far too often we have seen people who do fairly well at the 10-20-and even 30 levels decide to take a shot at the higher levels. They have moderate success and maybe even win a couple. However, their game simply isn't quite good enough to sustain a long term winning percentage at the higher level. The moderate success gives them a feeling of false confidence and far too often many of them lose a significant portion of their bankroll.

I also agree that bankroll rather than time should be the deciding factor in deciding to move up. If your bankroll can take losing 5 or 6 buy ins at the $100 level without you starting to sweat then take a few shots at them.

Stage /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[William]

They have moderate success and maybe even win a couple. However, their game simply isn't quite good enough to sustain a long term winning percentage at the higher level.

This is true, but again, you should be honest with yourself and if you don't feel that you are 100% comfortable at the new level, keep playing lower buy-ins with a few shots at the higher ones.
If on yhe other hand, you feel like top of the world and lose, you probably are just running bad.

William

[t_perkin]

[ QUOTE ]

This is true, but again, you should be honest with yourself and if you don't feel that you are 100% comfortable at the new level, keep playing lower buy-ins with a few shots at the higher ones.
If on yhe other hand, you feel like top of the world and lose, you probably are just running bad.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can see what you are saying and it is valid, certainly for better and more experienced players.
But the skills of analysing ones game, recognising when you are just being unlucky etc. are part of what makes a good poker player. Usually the people who are asking "should I move up?" are people who have only picked up a virtual deck of cards in the last few months. These people often don't have the skills and experience to recognise the difference between a hot streak and solid play.
So yes, for a good player, playing a few hundred SnGs at one level is not necessary for them to determine that they will be a long time winner, but then they are rarely the people asking the question.
For those who do not have the experience. I think a little bit of patience will do little harm in the long run, and could easily prevent an expensive mistake.

Or are you just saying this because the fish have all been eaten up there at the REAL MONEY tables. /images/graemlins/smile.gif Well if that is the case then tough tits - we want the fish down here too!

Bring on the Cod Wars!

Tim

[William]

we want the fish down here too!

But you are the fish down there. I want you all to move up! /images/graemlins/grin.gif

Seriously, I hardly play SNGs anymore, but I think that if you can't judge how well or odly you fit in a game, even as a beginner, then poker must remain a recreational game.

William /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[t_perkin]

[ QUOTE ]


But you are the fish down there. I want you all to move up!



[/ QUOTE ]

touché!

[lostinthought]

I think you are right, for the most part William..

I've recently started a project where I am trying to build my bankroll up from $150 as fast as possible.. I've been a consistant winner at ring games up to 5/10, and sng's in the 10-20$ range. This project has encouraged me to play the higher sng's more consistently..
I've been doing great, until I hit the $100 level..
losing 3-4 in a row here has made me realize that I probably need to bump back down to $50 and play some more there..

I'll be back to $100 soon..

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
So yes, for a good player, playing a few hundred SnGs at one level is not necessary for them to determine that they will be a long time winner, but then they are rarely the people asking the question.
For those who do not have the experience. I think a little bit of patience will do little harm in the long run, and could easily prevent an expensive mistake.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm replying to Tperkin since his thoughts most closely resemble mine. I've replied to many posters with this question and often cite that, in my experience, I jumped after winning for 500 games at each level. I have also generally said to those winning strongly for something like 200 games, that they will most likely be in fine shape moving up.

I think most SNG beginners that pose this question run a much greater risk of moving up too soon than too slowly. (Generally after running really well and not realizing their good fortune.)

[Prickly Pete]

[ QUOTE ]
if you don't feel that you are 100% comfortable at the new level, keep playing lower buy-ins with a few shots at the higher ones.


[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably a good approach for moving up. I always preferred the "cold turkey" of moving up and dropping the lower level completely, but I guess it's more of a personal preference.

One thing I learned when playing the 30s: I would on rare occasion try to play a 50 or 100, and got the impression that those games were filled with 9 other top-notch players all the time that I couldn't beat regularly. This mistaken impression kept me playing the 30s for longer than I probably needed to.

[aslowjoe]

I was one of those players that was reluctant to move up even though my bankroll could afford it. I thought I just a rookie and only an okay player at best with a ton to learn and the people I was playing were terrible( I still believe thst) and that was why I was winning. My last 175 games roi was over 50% and itm was almost 60%. So I jumped up the other night and played 20's. First game a big blunder and finished 8th, next game 4th and then I ended up winning back to back games. The two games heads up were as easy as wins as I have had which is the weakest part of game. I will definetly be taking Williams advice and moving to the next level quicker.

[Simon Diamond]

Remember. if you are among the winners at one level, you certainly have what it takes to succeed at the next level as well.

Interesting statement. I don't see how this can always be the case, but I do agree that trying the next level every now and then can do no harm.

Simon

[William]

[ QUOTE ]
Remember. if you are among the winners at one level, you certainly have what it takes to succeed at the next level as well.

Interesting statement. I don't see how this can always be the case, but I do agree that trying the next level every now and then can do no harm.

Simon

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok Simon, you caught me there.
I should have said that you probably have what it takes...

The point of course is to be a little more confident in yourself and not get stuck at a lower level, (unless you are just playing for the fun of it)

William

[Simon Diamond]

I definitely agree, it is one of my failings to not have more confidence in my own ability.

Simon

[Chief911]

I'd like to follow that statement and move up to 20/2, I just dont want to hit a bad run, and have to reload. I think I'm waiting til I get atleast the money for 20 of the 20/2's.

Chief911