From the pages of HPFAP

[bigsooner]

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q/images/graemlins/spade.gif, Q/images/graemlins/club.gif.
UTG raises, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 3/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, J/images/graemlins/diamond.gif, T/images/graemlins/club.gif <font color="blue">(6 players) </font>
Hero bets, UTG raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO calls, Hero 3-bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

Turn: (12.25 BB) 8/images/graemlins/heart.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
Hero bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, CO calls.

River: (16.25 BB) 4/images/graemlins/diamond.gif <font color="blue">(4 players) </font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 16.25 BB

anyone bet the river???

[eh923]

I wouldn't bet the river in this case. I also wouldn't wuss out and just call w/ QQ pre-flop. Is this your typical play?

[bigsooner]

In the loose games section of HPFAP there is a detailed disctiption of this play, KK or QQ in the BB with a EP raise and several cold callers, it was not about wussing out there are manny reasons.

[Bob T.]

I would bet the river.

You have the potential to win multiple bets here, so you don't need to have a 50% chance of winning for the river bet to be correct.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[bigsooner]

ive never thought about it like that, my thinking was the more callers the better the cahnce the flush draw was out there but you statment makes sense thanks

[AviD]

What pages from HPFAP are you extracting this play from?

Yes, I would bet the river.

[PokerBob]

I think you may be giving many of your opponents too much credit. By raising you may be giving them odds to chase post flop, but are you sure they understand odds?

[bigsooner]

p 167 QQ in tbe BB

[bigsooner]

you are exactly right they dont understand these are the opp. you want to keep the pot small with that way when they chase it is a mistake

[Bob T.]

Yeah, most party 2-4 players with top pair, aren't going to laydown on the river. If you are up against two of those, and one straight draw, you will likely win two bets here.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[eh923]

The loose section in HPFAP is not aimed at no fold 'em hold 'em like Party 2/4. (note - From a lot of other posts, majorkong's soon-to-be-released book appears to address these games better)

There are many reasons? What reasons are you referring to? The typical one I see on these posts is about manipulating pot odds, etc...which still is a bit shady against our low limit friends.

In a game where so many folks will call any A pre-flop, or sometimes any K, I'd rather give UTG the opportunity to cap it. This MIGHT help clean up some outs, and it also gives me some info early about how much he and the cold-callers like their hands.

[Bob T.]

Darn, you have a different edition than I do. Anyway, you have to remember that HPFAP was written for a midlimit game, and you are talking about party 2/4 here. I think that it might be possible that the play might be different at 40-80, than it would at 2-4.

Good luck,
play well,

Bob T.

[Dynasty]

The main purpose of the play is to get opponents to fold middle pair and bottom pair on the flop rather than draw to their 5-outers. It also puts pressure on opponents to fold 4-out straight draws.

But, look at the pot odds your opponents are getting on the flop. With six opponents seeing the flop for two small bets, there are 12 small bets in the pot (we'll count the small blind as the rake). You bet the flop and UTG raises. That puts 15 small bets in the pot and give anybody who is going to call two bets cold, 7.5:1 pot odds.

If an opponent is drawing to a 5-outer, they need 8.4:1 pot odds. They're getting 7.5:1. So, at the cost of all that pre-flop equity you're giving up by not 3-betting with QQ, you are making an opponent make only a small mistake on the flop.

Let's say MP2 cold-calls on the flop. Then, any player behind him is getting 8.5:1 pot odds to call drawing to a 5-outer. Now, he's not making a mistake to call.

So, what was the purpose of this play again?

[bigsooner]

the book is written for mid-limits there is a section in the back of the 21st cenury edition aimed at low limit loose games here is the quote" suppose you have two kings or two queens in the big blind. THe player UTG raises and six people call, our prefered way to play this hand is not to raise and then when the flop comes to come out betting unless it includes an ace, you should come out betting to enlist the preflop raiser to be your unwitting partner to knock people out"

[afs]

[ QUOTE ]
I would bet the river.

You have the potential to win multiple bets here, so you don't need to have a 50% chance of winning for the river bet to be correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but you gotta take into account the possibility that you'll be raised, unless you're about to lay down for one more bet. I don't know what the number would be, but I'm betting you probably do need to win around fifty percent. Dunno.

I still like a river bet though.

[pheasant tail (no 18)]

[ QUOTE ]
you are exactly right they dont understand these are the opp. you want to keep the pot small with that way when they chase it is a mistake

[/ QUOTE ]

I think your reasoning is mistaken here. If you are so interested in these bad players making mistakes, why not have them make a mistake in calling a three-bet preflop maybe a cap. That's really a mistake. And if you are so sure that they will chase, you might as well get your money in while you problably have the best hand. Then let them correctly pay to catch up.

QQ will not win too many pots unimpproved against 5 players who will chase irregardless of odds. Why not make these type of players pay dearly when you spike your set.

I think that most players (I don't play online so I don't know these players) do respond to size of pots and you may have reason to keep pot relatively small pf in hopes of manipulating field later. But this depends on their having some sense, if they have none, you must get your money in preflop.

PT

Only in heads up situation can ftop be strictly assumed to be true. All mistakes by opponents do not put money in your pocket in long run, just most of them.

[AviD]

What edition of HPFAP do you have?
And what section is this under?

I put the book down for awhile and just picked it back up early this week, I may have missed the part you are talking about or just havent gotten to it yet.

[bigsooner]

p 167 21st cent. edd. i postedthe quote in another post in this thread

[sthief09]

[ QUOTE ]
the book is written for mid-limits there is a section in the back of the 21st cenury edition aimed at low limit loose games

[/ QUOTE ]


where do they ever use the term "low limit" in that book?

Answer in white:
<font color="white"> nowhere, "loose games" refers to loose mid-limit games </font>


raising QQ here is one of the easiest things ever

[PokerBob]

[ QUOTE ]

If you are so interested in these bad players making mistakes, why not have them make a mistake in calling a three-bet preflop maybe a cap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well stated. When the pot is large, they are correct to chase, but you are correct to bet the best hand. Make them PAY. Raise pre-flop.

[AviD]

Yes I have it now.
Quoted as UTG raise and 6 callers.

The idea being, you can bet with a favorable flop and expect UTG to raise "as your partner" in pushing people out of an already large pot...rather than raising preflop and coming out betting and everyone having the correct odds (with 6 callers to UTG's PF raise) to call your bet.

i.e. you don't limit the field at all by raising out of the BB with the QQ.

Needless to say, and as this was mentioned previously, many of the HPFAP applies to mid limits and above...trying to push people out in low limit games is pretty moot IMO.

But it seemed to work well for you this time! /images/graemlins/smile.gif

[tolbiny]

[ QUOTE ]

If an opponent is drawing to a 5-outer, they need 8.4:1 pot odds. They're getting 7.5:1. So, at the cost of all that pre-flop equity you're giving up by not 3-betting with QQ, you are making an opponent make only a small mistake on the flop.

Let's say MP2 cold-calls on the flop. Then, any player behind him is getting 8.5:1 pot odds to call drawing to a 5-outer. Now, he's not making a mistake to call.

So, what was the purpose of this play again?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we can agree that most 2/4 party players dont take pot odds into account any more that "its a big pot, i want to win it". As you said Dynasty any caller is getting 7.5-1 on an 8.5-1 prop, with any amount of action after it his implied odds should more than make up for the descrepancy. So if they call then they are playing correctly (on the flop at least). There is a group of party players who will call one bet on the flop with almost any piece of it but will fold to two bets. I think what our friend is doing is trying to make these players incorrectly fold for two bets when they should be staying in even with as little as a gutshot- that's what i read into his play.

do i think it makes up for the equity lost not three betting the best hand preflop- probably not.