QQ hand in Party 30+3 multi - basic?

[Che]

Party 30+3 multi. Avg. stack ~2100. Blinds 50/100.

UTG ~2800
MP ~600
HERO ~2900
CO, Button, and SB have 1400-1600
BB ~3000

UTG limps. MP calls. Hero has Q /images/graemlins/diamond.gif Q /images/graemlins/spade.gif and raises to 500 from CO-1. Folded back to UTG who calls. MP folds. Pretty basic so far. Not expecting many comments on preflop play but they’re certainly welcome.

Flop: 5 /images/graemlins/club.gif 2 /images/graemlins/heart.gif 4 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Pot=1250. UTG has 2300 left. Hero has 2400.

UTG checks. Hero has been at this table for less than 2 orbits and has no relevant read on UTG.

What would you do?

1. If you push in, why?

2A. If you would bet less than all-in, how much?

2B. If you bet less than all-in, what do you do if UTG comes over the top?

2C. If you bet less than all-in and are called, what is your plan if an A hits the turn?

2D. What if a 3 hits?

2E. Or a /images/graemlins/club.gif?

3. If you check, what are you thinking? /images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Results and followup question in separate post later…

Che

[fsuplayer]

Preflop looks pretty standard.
Postflop:
Becuase I dont want to outthink myself on the five or six questions you asked considering postflop play, my plan is to get it all in the middle on the flop. If I am beat i am beat, but with those short of stacks, no way do you find out w/o a showdown.

Since he limp/called preflop, he could have something like A10s, 66-99 maybe depending on his play. There is a possibility that he may be trapping you with AA or KK, but like I said, you cant really be worried about that.

You hit a great flop for your hand and I would look to take down the 1290 in the pot right now and have a stack a very good stack of T3600 if he folds. If he calls with a mid pair or even a strangely played AK, or a draw, fine, but I am getting my chips in the center here every time and not losing sleep over it.

I am not looking to bait anyone and get cute in this situation, as QQ is a vulerable hand.

Another thing, if you push here, it is an overbet and may look like a AK that whiffed and you may get that mid pair to call you thinking you are trying to move him out of the pot.

To answer you question:
If you check, you are NOT thinking!

Checking is the worst play I think bc if and A or K or club falls, you have to fold to a large bet and lose that very nice pot.

Sorry for the rambling, its early for me at college.

Hope it worked out.

Comments appreciated.

FsuPlayer

[Chief911]

I'm far from an expert, but I dont like pushing here. Why not make a nice big bet like 500-750, so if he is chasing, he probably folds or pays dearly for it. He almost surely doesnt have a higher pair than you. Although pushing here isn't bad either, it would probably win you the pot. But I like going 500-700.

Chief

[SaintAces]

[nolanfan34]

Interesting scenario. Based on how the play has gone so far, I'd put UTG on either two overcards like AQ or KQ, or a PP from 77-TT. I just feel like the PF limp/call, combined with the check on the flop, rules out AA or KK, unless UTG is really crazy and doesn't realize the danger of giving up a free card here. More likely your PF raise has UTG wondering if their overpair to the flop is good or not, so they're checking to see what you do.

That being said, I'm pushing here, because I want to take down this pot without seeing another card. And I'm hoping I'm not walking into a set, or A3.

[Peter H]

i bet 800 to gain 1 more big bet and plan to push on the turn if no scare extremely scary card comes. 800 is 1/3 of both ure stacks and 2/3 of the pot so its not an easy call, but it is probably a call that an overpair will make but too much for a flush draw or AK top call. (assuming sensible player). this is ideal b/c u are gettin called by a weaker hand but making the hands that could beat u fold.

if i knew the player more adn he was aggr or a constant bluffer then i would be more inclined to push allin. but most ppl in the 33Party multis are too passive and will not bluff allin on turn if a flush card comes and they have a pair like 66-99.

pete

[SossMan]

Preflop is good..I may make the raise a little bigger considering the two limpers. This is a hand that you want to play either heads up or against multiple players (5+). I usually make a 3x open raise. But I add 1.5x for every limper. So if there are two limpers, I would add another 3x, and make it 6x preflop. So I would have gone to T600 here. Not much different from your T500, so just a matter of preference. My reasoning is that the bigger that pot gets, the more I would NOT like to see a flop against multiple players.

PostFlop:
This is a nice flop for you. I think there are only two ways you can play it. I'll assume that UTG has checked to you in the CO-1 (although, the way you phrase your questions, I'm not sure)
The first way would be to make a pot sized bet of ~T1200. This will charge the flush/straight draws the maximum. It will also entice an overpair to push in on you w/ 2 outs. I think this play is somewhat greedy and has the potential to backfire since an all in bet would likely scare off any drawing hand. (I hope I don't have to mention that were calling if he comes over the top)
If he calls, it's all going in on the turn unless a 3 or an Ace comes off. I think I could get off the hand if he bets into me after the scare card, but it would be rough.

The second way would be the low variance option of pushing all in now. This will most likely take down the nice T1250 pot. This would discourage just about every draw. The problem is that, with the exception of 66-JJ, you are probably only getting called when you are behind.

Without any reads on the player, I would probably go all in. This play looks like you have AK, so you probably will get calls from worse hands, and at the same time, charges drawing hands the max.

A pot sized bet followed by an all in on a non scary turn card is my second favorite option. Either way, 95% of the time, you are going to the felt on this hand.

[HighRolla81]

Gotta push it and take away any chance of him drawing

[Che]

Results: I pushed. Opponent called with 55 and I was left with 98 chips. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

[ QUOTE ]
1. If you push in, why?


[/ QUOTE ]

I pushed because a pot-sized bet was 1/2 my stack and I didn't want to have to play guessing games if I bet smaller and UTG called and one of the 18 scare cards hit on the turn. I'm not sure if pushing or betting less is optimal, but I definitely don't like my mindset here. More on that later...

[ QUOTE ]
2B. If you bet less than all-in, what do you do if UTG comes over the top?

[/ QUOTE ]

This one is easy. No way I fold to a reraise on this flop against an unknown online opponent.

[ QUOTE ]
2C. If you bet less than all-in and are called, what is your plan if an A hits the turn?
2D. What if a 3 hits?
2E. Or a /images/graemlins/club.gif?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only way I can imagine ever folding this (given these stack sizes) is if the turn is the A /images/graemlins/club.gif or the 3 /images/graemlins/club.gif. Even then, folding would be questionable IMHO.

So the correct mindset should have been: I'm taking this hand all the way so I need to do whatever maximizes my EV.

My opponent can have a number of hands:

any pair (8:1 implied odds if he spikes a set and gets me allin - as he did /images/graemlins/mad.gif) but AA/KK would likely limp-reraise rather than limp-call; big aces; maybe A-rag if it's suited

AA/KK/55/44/22/A3 crush me
AK /images/graemlins/club.gif is also a favorite
33, Ax /images/graemlins/club.gif, and any hand with an A and a club have tons of outs
66 and Ax (no clubs) have 6 or 7 outs
I dominate other pairs.

I think the opponent will be drawing most of the time so I could charge him to draw, but I think the pot is too large to risk it for 500-800 more chips so pushing in is probably best. I just wish this was as clear cut for me as it is for many of you. /images/graemlins/frown.gif

Followup question: I had been playing rather aggressively during my short stay at this table. Should I have bet bigger (700-900) preflop to take advantage of my loose-aggressive image? As an added bonus, this would have killed the implied odds on the small pair. (Probably wouldn't have saved me in this case, but it might be a better play than raising to 500.)

Thanks for all the responses,
Che

[fsuplayer]

che
like sossman said, you could have made it T600-700, but the 500 is okay too. He got very lucky to hit that set, but I disagree with most of the poster here about betting 700-800. I dont want to see the turn unless my stack is in the middle...like you said, 18 scare cards!

I dont get the you will only get called when you are behind in this situation. TT-JJ and prob. 99, and maybe AK will call here a lot of the time (esp. TT and JJ) bc this allin overbet looks like a steal.

If like recommended by many others, you go T600 and he moves in, you are calling everytime, so might as well move in an not wait for the scare card.
FsuPlayer

[SossMan]

[ QUOTE ]
I dont get the you will only get called when you are behind in this situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

I should clarify....WHEN you get called, you are most likely beat. Doesn't mean that you wont ever get calls from hands that you are beating. But I do agree that all in is the best play here, for a multitude of reasons. (Charge draws, looks like a whiffed AK, the pot is large already, etc..)

[cferejohn]

[ QUOTE ]
WHEN you get called, you are most likely beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Eh, I don't know if I quite agree. I find that the hands that people are by far most likely to call a preflop raise with at this stage of the tournament (i call it the "someones chips are probably going all-in on the flop" stage) is a pair. Some players will call with strong aces, but most, I find, will either push if they think their ace is good enough or fold if they don't).

So, let's assume for the time being that he would have called with any pair (and since he called with 55, that doesn't look like an unreasonable assumption). That's a total of 64 possible hands (3 ways to make 22, 44, 55, 1 way to make QQ, 6 ways to make anything else).

Of those hands, you are behind 21 of them, and ahead of 42 of them. Now, let's think as the opponent. If he had 33, he now has an open ended straight draw, and he has taken away 6 of your outs if you have an ace. Any other pair and he has an overpair. It seems unlikely that he would call with a pair planning to fold if he ended up flopping an overpair (plus 66 gives him a gutshot).

Add in the fact that your push is going to look a lot like overcards + a gutshot (ie. Ax), and I think that most players are going to be calling with most pairs here. I think you will get plenty of calls from hands you are way ahead of.

What's more, if he *did* call with some kind of ace preflop, he's pretty likely to fold to an all-in (and would be making a mistake to call an all-in bet). And while you don't mind a call, getting someone with 7-10 outs (1 or 2 overcards plus a gutshot) to fold, ceding you a pretty good sized pot), is definitely not a bad thing.

Obviously, you are going to get called by any hand that beats you, but given the range of hands a player is likely to make a preflop call with here, and the range of hands with which he will call a subsequent all-in bet with a worse overpair, I think that an all-in bet here is easily +EV.

[fsuplayer]

Sossman-
Sry, I was replying in a hurry. I do understand the concept of only being call when you are behind. But at this point in the tourney, with this particular hand, you are going in anyways...so the "only get called when you are beat" theory doesnt hold true nearly as much in this situation, as there are many hands that will call you that you are ahead of. And, you wont fold anyways, so it doesnt matter as much anyways.
So again I vote for all-in baby!
FsuPlayer

[Grivan]

Even if your not beat at this point in a tournament I would be happy to win the 1000 chip pot without having to worry about getting out drawn. I also believe that an all in here would get called by pocket pairs lower then queens.

[Che]

Thanks for the response, Chris.

Reading this one finally convinced me that all-in is the way to go.

There's nothing worse than analyzing and analyzing and analyzing a situation and still not knowing what you would do the next time so I'm glad I can finally get off the fence.

Life (or at least poker) is easier with this motto:

Not always right, but never in doubt.

Che